Guards and Unknown Threats

[b0rsuk]

First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

People with no experience in programming believe making something optional makes things easier, not harder.

All permadeath needed was a limit on the number of savegame files. FOV is an order of magnitude harder, we're talking about new colonist behaviour. Suddenly you end up designing and balancing two games - one with FOV, one without.

Guard duty as you describe is easy to do with a special allowed zone and a colonist set to aggressive mode. There's just no point because you can see everything a 10 miles ahead.

The role of notification messages is fulfilled by distant gunfire. If a trade caravan encounters a mechanoid pack, you won't miss it.

FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

[keylocke]

hmm.. in the older alphas, i agree that there might've been plenty of people confused by the FOW. (which was why tynan removed it) coz iirc, the notification system back then was still underdeveloped.

however, we now have these kinds of notifications :



clicking on this icon will point the player to the location of the event and even if the player can't see the details of that event if there was FOW, the current notification system already gives sufficient information for the player to rationally make their decisions.

[rexx1888]

+1 for someone seeing this an knowing that some ppl want some unknowns in their RW experience

[MAKAIROSI]

Concerning FoW i'd say it would be cool to have it as an event, or at nighttime. By event i mean something like a disaster. Now, at nighttime, it would be awesome if you could have this feeling that you are staying inside your colony, where it's safe from the unknown, you know?

Anyway, concerning guard posts and duties i think that would be cool but i don't think they should be focusing on that this much. I mean, we don't need patrol areas *and* guard posts *and* guard duties etc.  I would say, if you assign a colonist to a guard post, then he will basically live there and other colonists will bring him food etc. he can take walks outside so he avoids cabin fever, but basically that's what he will be doing now. And after a week or two he could complain that he needs to be back at the "normal" jobs for a while. And it would be *awesome* if it was his duty to also reset the traps that have sprung - this way you can have an automated defense system, but i'd suggest that this becomes effective in mid-game (in early game turrets would be more effective and having a guard post would be more consuming than providing) but yeah, i completely agree on that one.

[rexx1888]

hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

legit, winter is the worst. i basically have to go an cull the bear population if i dont want them eating someone, an on giant maps that is a pain in the can. Legit though, since bears might enter a base an not be hungry, the turrets ignore them. everyone ignores them. an then boom, three days later they're ravenous an maul a dog or something.

On that note, id also love it if i got a notification when a pawn went into survival mode. i want to know if a pawn is running for his life or not. Thats important. Doesnt fix animals being eaten, but its a step in the right direction.

[MarcTheMerc]

Im against fog of war but I like the guard idea use those Assasins for a passive mood boost or you know not just have them mindlessly wandering.

[Harold3456]

I know I'm attempting to say my piece in an emotionally charged thread, but... I don't like the idea of Fog of War in this game. I don't hate it, mind you - it works well in situations like undiscovered rooms/caverns. But for your plain, everyday events it would just be a hindrance.

I'm checking the map ingame constantly for stuff like wild game, minerals in mountains, harvestable trees/plants, etc. In addition to being convenient, it's also a good distraction when the base falls into an easy monotony. If the base were all I could see, I'd be terribly bored, and sending a single guy out to explore these patches of land would be time consuming and boring.

the ONE advantage I see to Fog of War is that it stands to make combat a little more thrilling, but since Rimworld isn't a combat-heavy game this doesn't seem like a worthy trade-off for the amount that would be lost.

I think many of the best benefits to Fog of War could be easily mimicked by putting gameplay elements into "colonist vision". Stuff like making colonists less accurate when shooting in the dark so they need perimeter lights, or giving them a mood debuff in darkness outside (I know it already exists for inside). But considering that constant resource management inside and outside the colony proper is a heavy component of this game, FOW would cost more than it would give.

Of course, all IMO.

[Kegereneku]

keylocke,
You have the burden of proof and you can't just dismiss others opinions as biased.
You've yet to prove that Rimworld game-experience would profit/lose nothing with (your vision of) FoW, like many people who limit their contribution and analysis to "+1 it sound cool, I'm not responsible if it fail anyway"

If this answer don't satisfy you, just read my previous post again. I'm sorry but I consider it still answer you. On the question of suspense and Drama, I can't do clearer than the full "Hitchcock argumentation")

It is not surprising that any proposal that hints of FoW brings out the usual highly vocal suspects of FoW haters.  Let me advise you that it is useless to try and argue with them.  Rational arguments will fall on deaf ears.[.......]

Yet of course it can't possibly apply to you, doesn't it ?
"Burden of proof put aside" if someone were to argue that Rimworld should be "upgraded" into a FOG-LESS self-generating Epic Narrative game precisely by making more and finer Events, by adding diplomacy, adding easily visible group of travelers, by showing the inner torment of every body regardless of line of sight... all sort of idea negated/destroyed or plain incompatible with FoW.

If this were to happen ... you could be the highly-vocal haters incapable of understanding that his (childish?) vision of game-design would deprive everybody from "greater potential" that even you would approve if only you weren't stuck up on a monomania.

Please of course, take no offense in the purely hypothetical situation above. After-all, I can't be true if you don't agree doesn't it ?
Btw, I'm pretty sure Chess-players would mind quite vocally if you forced them to play on different boards to allow "optional blind-chess".

Concerning FoW i'd say it would be cool to have it as an event, or at nighttime. By event i mean something like a disaster. Now, at nighttime, it would be awesome if you could have this feeling that you are staying inside your colony, where it's safe from the unknown, you know?
[.......]

POST OF THE YEAR ! An out-of-the-box suggestion, so we don't get stuck with only two ideas.
I suggested myself some "Heavy fog" as Events.
Also suggested clearly notified "stealth" events which differ from normal gameplay calling for a minimal "Guard/Draft" mechanic, all without imposing a permanent curse of blindness to everybody.

hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

Behind most suggestions there's always a much simpler need that can be solved by a much more practical solution.
Some time ago people were asking for a mean to have a colonist escort another one, now that they react to threat and can be followed by animals I'm betting this is much less important.

Still, can't keep myself from saying that with a FOW you would surely end up asking for ways to know where predators are without having to micromanage scout, costly patrols, or send fully-able soldier.


Note to self : Stop answering the same topic ad infinitum

[rexx1888]

Note to self : Stop answering the same topic ad infinitum

can you, can you please do that. i like reading others thoughts on why they find FOW bad because they are varied an filled with their feelings. Your views are always filled with stuff you think proves your point like you're a designer on staff... which you arent. It muddies the waters somewhat having an overzealous naysayer constantly showing up an expounding ad infinitum about how this or that idea is terrible. not to mention you have managed to derail so many of these threads that way.

so lets all get back on track, anyone got some other suggestions to do with guard posts an patrols, ignoring for the moment the FOW stuff which was a footnote in the OP. personally, i still think itd be useful to have a dedicated job to make sure predators dont go the full Arnie on folks during winter.

[MAKAIROSI]

@Kegereneku

When we're discussing these things we're basically trying to make our experience (and the experience of those who come after us) better. I think it would not be wise to experiment with such gameplay-altering additions without being able to at least visualise the result.

Trying to imagine FoW in daytime, having to manually lead each individual for a simple hunt or mining operation is extremely frustrating and tiresome. At night people will usually go to sleep, which is safe to say, you don't really need to see the entire map. *However* there has been an instance where i was being sieged and the siegers were sleeping at night so, in order to take them by surprise, i ordered all my colonists to sleep during the siege and attack when the enemy was sleeping. It was literally the safest and quickest fight, and i was really glad that the game "allowed" such a tactic.

So if people really want to implement FoW then the safest way (apart from an event) would be to use it at night, but also, in the early-game. Let's say a tech would remove it altogether when the sieges start.

But if that's the case, then why bother to put it in anyway. It seems like the things they can do (and already have on their list of doing) with this game are endless, so would anyone really want them to focus on this?

To sum up: i think the safest way to implement FoW (apart from an event) would be to only make it active at night, and only in the early game.

[keylocke]

+1 for someone seeing this an knowing that some ppl want some unknowns in their RW experience

yea, most of the time the jillions of cargo pods and visitor events that keep popping up is like TMI (too much info).. this information overload made these events feel like less of an "event" because it does not even inspire curiosity. the lack of FOW makes these events worth less than 5 seconds of my time coz of TMI.

i don't even bother counting the dozens of raiders or mechs attacking me or what items they have.
since their movements are too predictable without FOW, so all i need is the location and direction from where they spawn (shown by the notification) and what type of raid it is (also shown by the notification)

meanwhile, splinter forces of the raider AI trying to outflank the player are easily discovered coz of the lack of FOW, so it robs the player of the surprise of getting outflanked.

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knowing what items raiders have or characteristics they have or if they are trying to outflank you is TMI (if they are beyond your viewing range). it kinda breaks immersion knowing everything, because the game robs you of surprises.


edit :

@kegereneku : do you even read my counter-arguments or are just apt in dismissing them coz it disagrees with you?

anyways, i hope this new post enlightens you about how FOW robs you of the surprise of getting outflanked. meanwhile the current notification systems already provides the players the necessary information they need to make rational decisions.

TMI is information overload.

when it comes to storytelling, giving enough information is good, but TMI is bad coz robbing the players of mystery also robs them of curiosity. it robs players of surprises.

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edit :

"Burden of proof put aside" if someone were to argue that Rimworld should be "upgraded" into a FOG-LESS self-generating Epic Narrative game precisely by making more and finer Events, by adding diplomacy, adding easily visible group of travelers, by showing the inner torment of every body regardless of line of sight... all sort of idea negated/destroyed or plain incompatible with FoW.

If this were to happen ... you could be the highly-vocal haters incapable of understanding that his (childish?) vision of game-design would deprive everybody from "greater potential" that even you would approve if only you weren't stuck up on a monomania.

to address your specific points :

what happens when a visitor or an event is spawned without FOW?

1) you see them spawn and start walking towards their destination
2) you check if their path is clear of hostiles
3) you realize there are no hostiles. you check if they have anything interesting or doing anything interesting.
4) nothing interesting caught your attention. your curiosity is gone in less than 1 minute.
5) the event has easily become a non-event. with zero interaction from your colonists.

it's that resolution to an event with the lack of pawn interaction which is bugging me, because the player already has all the information it needs without even lifting a finger.

your colonists have ceased to become a witness to their own story as it is unfolding.

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edit :

besides, having FOW will not prevent the development and addition of new events as you try to falsely claim.

since most events occur along with notifications. it's the most important point that you keep ignoring, since notifications already provide enough information to make rational choices on making risk/reward decisions.

having FOW with these events would give them a "rogue-like" appeal, since not only will it inspire curiosity, that veil of mystery also provides enough space for the "unexpected" to occur.

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edit :

lastly, the FOW system is already within rimworld. it was just removed by tynan. (coz some people complained about it when the notification systems were still underdeveloped)

but several alphas later, things have changed. we now have a very informative notification system.

the only thing we ask is to have a toggleable option for players who wants the FOW to be enabled.

i really don't get why kegereneku is trying to prevent that.

[b0rsuk]

hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

legit, winter is the worst. i basically have to go an cull the bear population if i dont want them eating someone, an on giant maps that is a pain in the can. Legit though, since bears might enter a base an not be hungry, the turrets ignore them. everyone ignores them. an then boom, three days later they're ravenous an maul a dog or something.

It's currently more of a bug that anything else. Turrets shoot manhunter animals, but they don't shoot hungry bears.

Does it make sense to keep the mad animal event when we already have hungry bears ? What do you think ?

This actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

This highlights a major difference between Tynan and Toady. Toady, the developer of Dwarf Fortress, is more than happy to have adamantium veins which are esentially hollow vertical pipes leading straight to Hell. He's happy to throw terrible surprises (a.k.a. FUN) at player. Meanwhile Tynan is very concerned about upsetting players, and no events or enemies exist that destroy a carefully built colony on its own.

It's not surprising Rimworld players are not using the term FUN in the sense that DF players do. Some DF converts do use it that way, and they get blank stares in return.

[Harold3456]

First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

^This. I like the idea of a Rimworld-like game having FoV, but I don't think it would be a good fit in Rimworld itself. Most of the suspense in Rimworld is in the act of the raid/infestation/psychic ship appearing. As attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

I still argue that this Vision=Security can be simulated by giving mood/vision buffs to colonists in well-lit areas, and then maybe adding torches or outdoor lampposts in strategic locations around the colony. This would make the wilderness dangerous for your colonists at night (which is when unexpected events like raids are likely to occur) but won't severely change the game.

I would play the game that pro-FoV people are suggesting, for sure. I just don't think that game is Rimworld.

[b0rsuk]

FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

^This. I like the idea of a Rimworld-like game having FoV, but I don't think it would be a good fit in Rimworld itself. Most of the suspense in Rimworld is in the act of the raid/infestation/psychic ship appearing. As attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

But it means that mystery only happens when the Storyteller rolls dice. Mystery could be a game system instead, supported by mechanics like FOV.

And there is less emergence here than in a system composed of FOV and stuff. Events are scheduled and rarely overlap. I raise an eyebrow if a manhunter pack comes with a psychic drone - I was a bit worried because Freckles was caught in the open and had to spend night in a remote soil farm. The result is that each event has a definite solution, and can be played by the book. When was the last time I had two sieges at once ? More than 2 alphas ago. Do you remember a trade caravan that ran into manhunter pack ? Me neither. A siege with a solar flare, is it even possible ? I don't believe it, solar flare is the time to make a campfire in the growing zone and for food in the fridge to spoil a little. And I play on Randy. On Cassie and Phoebe it's probably even more formulaic.

[keylocke]

This actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

This highlights a major difference between Tynan and Toady. Toady, the developer of Dwarf Fortress, is more than happy to have adamantium veins which are esentially hollow vertical pipes leading straight to Hell. He's happy to throw terrible surprises (a.k.a. FUN) at player. Meanwhile Tynan is very concerned about upsetting players, and no events or enemies exist that destroy a carefully built colony on its own.

It's not surprising Rimworld players are not using the term FUN in the sense that DF players do. Some DF converts do use it that way, and they get blank stares in return.

^this.

not only are the events becoming more "formulaic" and predictable, but the lack of a FOW makes the player supremely aware of everything going on. which is why the game lacks the surprise you'd get from rogue-likes other than an RNG roll.

it robs the players of the uncertainty of risk/reward decisions coz every single piece of information is already available to them. it's like having spoilers to all the plot in the story forcibly turned on.

this type of "fun" is a matter of paradigm shifts, so i do not expect everyone would be convinced to agree with FOW. but having a toggle option for FOW doesn't really break the game.

FOW is already IN the game, it's just disabled/modified at the moment, so that it only hides the areas covered by mountain.

a toggle option to turn a global FOW on/off would be fine.