Guards and Unknown Threats

Started by Colonist51, May 02, 2016, 11:30:39 AM

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Colonist51

Here are a few ideas that in my opinion are not too hard to implement and could greatly improve the immersion of RimWorld, among other things.

1. New type of work - Guard
Priority: between Bed rest and Flick
Relevant skills: Shooting, Melee

A colonist that is assigned to guard will walk around with a drawn gun and will automatically pursuit enemies within the home area.

2. New type of Zone/Area - Expand Patrol Area, Clear Patrol Area

An area where the guards are restricted to. If enemy appears within the home area, the guard will leave the patrol area and attack the enemy. If there's no patrol area, the guard will wander around in the same fashion as an idle colonist.

3. New security building - Guard spot
Capacity: 1 colonist

Works just like the patrol area, except guards will always prioritize standing in a guard spot over a patrol area. Similarly to a sleeping spot, you can assign colonists to it. Multiple colonists can be assigned to a single guard spot. If there's an assigned colonist, only that colonist will be allowed to use the guard spot.

4. New positive thoughts - Protected, Safe
Protected: +5
Safe: +10

Whenever there's an active guard, all colonists receive a passive mood boost of +5 (Protected). If there are 3 or more colonists simultaneously doing guard duty, all colonists receive a passive mood boost of +10 (Safe).

Optional gameplay features:

Unknown Threats - an option to disable threat notifications (raids, sieges, wild animals, etc).

Attacks on your base will catch you by surprise, guards will be more useful by a tenfold and the best part? Makes the game experience more challenging and realistic.

Fog of War - an option to make enemies, visitors, animals, etc, hidden unless they are in your colonist's field of view. Adds to difficulty and immersion.

Synergizes with Unknown Threats for maximum immersion.

dragoduval

+1 on all of them, guard duty is an essential and the removal of announcement would make the game more surprising.

Also it would be nice if we could alter guards automatically. Per exemple, 3 guard doing 8 hours shift each after the other, for a 24h guard duty at the same spots, would be nice and remove some useless clicking.
Im making my own mod !!!! Also im pretty sure that i started World Wars 3.....

Also if i spawn too many subject then dont mind me, i'm just bored at school :D. Damn 3 hours long video's....

Colonist51

Quote from: dragoduval on May 02, 2016, 11:53:18 AM
+1 on all of them, guard duty is an essential and the removal of announcement would make the game more surprising.

Also it would be nice if we could alter guards automatically. Per exemple, 3 guard doing 8 hours shift each after the other, for a 24h guard duty at the same spots, would be nice and remove some useless clicking.

Thanks for the support.

For 8 hours shifts, you could just restrict the activities of those 3 guards to 8 hours of work during different times of the day.

Mufflamingo

Since you said about the notifications and fog of war, how about the game will notify you about the danger if the raiders/manhunter/whatevers is on sight. Because, I think not notifying you at all seems to OP. You at 3x speed not noticing your colonist being shot to death at the edge of the map.
Bleeeee. . . . .

Kegereneku

No, no and no.
The absence of Fog of War is a FEATURE in game-design along User-Interface, not a flaw. See the developers comment
The idea was discussed to death in a (locked) thread, here is where I explain the problems.

In short : a FoW would bring nothing interesting to the game and work against every other of its features, like Events.

It would basically regress the game into the Tower-Defense we escaped from when the devs created Sieges, then Sappers.
I even affirm that any new features someone think FoW could bring, will be better implemented without hiding information globally.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

Colonist51

Quote from: Mufflamingo on May 02, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
Since you said about the notifications and fog of war, how about the game will notify you about the danger if the raiders/manhunter/whatevers is on sight. Because, I think not notifying you at all seems to OP. You at 3x speed not noticing your colonist being shot to death at the edge of the map.

Good point. "Enemy sighted" notification when an enemy appears in a colonist's proximity/field of view. However if you send a lone colonist to the edge of the map, you should set him to flee in case of a threat anyway.

Colonist51

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 02, 2016, 03:07:36 PM
No, no and no.
The absence of Fog of War is a FEATURE in game-design along User-Interface, not a flaw. See the developers comment
The idea was discussed to death in a (locked) thread, here is where I explain the problems.

In short : a FoW would bring nothing interesting to the game and work against every other of its features, like Events.

It would basically regress the game into the Tower-Defense we escaped from when the devs created Sieges, then Sappers.
I even affirm that any new features someone think FoW could bring, will be better implemented without hiding information globally.

First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

Secondly, you make it sound like my entire post was about FoW. The features I listed above could also perfectly work without FoW.

Kegereneku

It's true I have been hasty, have a more throughout review :
First, I must insist that the features you suggest are not casual in game-design. You don't make extensive Feature and balance runs for a "optional" gameplay. Things is : some "simple" ideas easily turn into fundamental Game Changer that require extensive change & balance..

I understand if you don't have the time to read the Links, but they are very informative precisely on things you are aiming for.

To rephrase : The Notifications are a feature that make the game playable, usually realism don't.
- "Guard & Patrol" require the manpower and the ability to cover the distance to actually see the threat in time. It serve no point if you can't make it work or if it make no difference with normal Notification.
- the concept of "Unknown Threats" is (mostly) incompatible with Events in that it negate the distinctions between them, and with the calmer/managing pace of the normal game.
- "Unseen Threats" cause a problem where you have to define and balance colonist "sight" as well as when you are notified, because you'll need to be, every. single. time. a. new. threat. is. spotted. And even then it will encourage Savescuming as you'll likely see the threat only when it is too late (unseen enemy wrecking havoc in place you can't afford to lose for example).
For some players Predators are already way too much...

Conclusion :
You have to get around some very fundamental problems to get your "full" suggestion. To me around 90% of it is incompatible or would need to be made pointless to fit.
Still, I do see a much simpler "Guard" ideas : As an equivalent to "Draft" where the pawn also keep feeding/sleeping (clic pawn > DraftasGuard > Select Area, leave until undrafted), not as a jobs.
There's no need for constant guards and guard post, only temporary ones to deal with short & specific events.

I recommend encouraging someone to try the idea as a MODS, to see if it work.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

keylocke

#8
i like the guard ideas and FOW.

and yea, i've read the links in kegereneku's post and his arguments and here's my take on it :

-"we dunno if FOW would add improvement to gameplay, it might actually break the careful balance and therefore.. NOPE". <--- this is his typical reaction and i don't blame him. every new feature to be added really needs to be considered how it will affect the current game balance. which is a huge task not to be taken lightly.

-"FOW prevents players from seeing the enemies and preventing them from planning ahead"... <--- the lack of knowledge of enemy troop movements does not automatically prevents players from planning an attack or a defense. playstyle is different per each player, some are aggressive while some are defensive. but the FOW does not deter them from doing such things. i've played several RTS games before like starcraft, warcraft, red alert, battlerealms, etc... played with FOW both on and off.. and i definitely enjoy having FOW better since it forces you to be more cautious since you don't know if you're facing an enemy scouting party or a full on attack force. i think that "layer of uncertainty" adds to the "drama". let your imagination run wild...

-"rimworld is focused on storytelling and characters" <--- adding more combat elements doesn't impede the storytelling in any way. those are two different and separate systems.

"a classic FOW only delays the information you need, so you just spam detection stuff to see the enemies" <----- that is an assumption based on an elaborate imbalance that you try to portray.. ie : what makes you so sure that you can "spam" those scouts and radars and whatever? and even if you can spam them, what makes you sure they would detect enemy positions accurately?  in games like gnomoria, they have FOW but even though you can have as many torches and guards patrolling the area, the enemies are still able to sneak up on you.. which isn't much different to raiders dropping on top of you.. but the main difference is : enemies able to ambush you is based on player lapse in judgement, while raiders dropping down from the sky on top of you is just RNGods screwing with you.

------------------------------

meanwhile this is what tynan stated :

QuoteThis actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

Consider: Raiders approach, some muffalo go mad and attack them and there's a dramatic battle. With FoW over them, you never see any of it.

Actually, the FoW system is still in the game, but is only used for undiscovered underground features.

I may re-consider this some day, but at this point hiding information does not seem like the right direction to go for story generation. To me that's more a strategy game mechanic, and it only really works well in multiplayer strategy games where human players can fake each other out for strategic advantage.

It's one of those ideas that seems good but just doesn't work out that well. RimWorld has had and lost several of those so far.

the gist of it is : the FOW prevents "stories" and "events" from being witnessed by players if it occurred covered in FOW.

but that mostly depends on "perspectives".. ie : if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound if no one hears it?

my view on this is that : if none of your colonists is within viewing distance of the "event" or "story" taking place, then you can just let your imagination run wild.

ie : there could be notifications of an event happening, but if you wanna witness what's actually going on, then you should send someone to scout and "witness" the event occurring.

ie : a notification pops out that says : "you hear some fighting in the distance. you should send someone to see what's going on.." and then the player can send someone to do that. (if they want to.. or feel free to ignore it and let the "mystery" build up) like sending someone in the morning to the location pointed by the notification and then seeing corpses scattered about and a severely wounded bear attacks you.. <------ that's a cool story. since "surprise" and "mystery" adds to the drama.

------------------

anyways, in the older alphas, people were "confused" by the FOW coz there were not enough notification systems in place, and a lot of new features that are implement right now were not implemented before.

so yea, feature suggestions that were thumbed down before, should ALWAYS be reassessed for validity by checking how things measure up to the new alpha.

-------------------------

edit :

here are more sample notifications for events occurring covered in FOW :

-"you hear a loud animal howl in the distance" <-- mad animal event with no witness. clicking on notification will point you at it's location (what kind of animal made that noise? it's a mystery)

-"you detect a drop pod crashing from the sky in the distance" <--- when something crashes via drop pods on FOW. (is it cargo pods? what sort of items? is it raiders? is it crashed spacer? what is it? it's a mystery.. hehe)

-"you sense a malevolent presence drop from the sky in the distance" <---- when an evil/poison ship drops... (did it drop on top of a marsh? can you build stuff around it? it's a mystery until you send someone to scout)

etc.. there would be notifications for most of the events. but the details of those events are kept as a mystery until you send someone to investigate it.

ie : you only know what your colonists know..

sometimes imaginative speculations due to the "unknown" is the best storyteller.

---------------------

edit :

the comms console can also take part in the "storytelling"

ie : before you build a console, traders will just drop by without notification (you'd just eventually see them in front of your base)

but with comms console built, traders can send notifications like :

"we're sending some traders, we hope to receive your hospitality" or some of those events where someone is being chased by raiders or maybe some bounty events. etc..

Limdood

i agree 100% with kegereneku.

This is not the game for "gotcha" events.  There is no way to iplement something this pervasive into the game and make it "optional" and it changes the entire style and feel of the game.  I don't think it will happen and i'm very against it.

keylocke

#10
Quote"Guard & Patrol" require the manpower and the ability to cover the distance to actually see the threat in time. It serve no point if you can't make it work or if it make no difference with normal Notification.
<--- notifications can just alert the player of the general location of an event the same way it does now. but depending on the type of event, guard and patrols are essentially just an automated attack system, like walking meat-turrets that the player doesn't need to draft to deal against minor threats like mad animals or hopefully against predators hunting prey. (a great job that would be good for assassins, nobles, etc.. who doesn't do much other than idle around). but it is up to the player to reassess the situation whenever it reveals itself.

Quote- the concept of "Unknown Threats" is (mostly) incompatible with Events in that it negate the distinctions between them, and with the calmer/managing pace of the normal game.

the "mystery" doesn't negate the distinction between events. figuring out the details of the event is up to the players.

ie : will you ignore the possible threat? downplay it cocksure of your defenses? or would you be up in arms waiting for the apocalypse?

that tense atmosphere between "mystery" and "revelation" is rife with drama.

Quote- "Unseen Threats" cause a problem where you have to define and balance colonist "sight" as well as when you are notified, because you'll need to be, every. single. time. a. new. threat. is. spotted. And even then it will encourage Savescuming as you'll likely see the threat only when it is too late (unseen enemy wrecking havoc in place you can't afford to lose for example).
For some players Predators are already way too much...

notifications can just give you a clue of the nature of the event while pointing at it's general location. this would give the player enough information whether to ignore it or not. which provides the element of "risk" against people with "hubris".

there's also ironman mode if you hate savescumming.. but savescumming and dev mode are available to most players. they use it if they feel like they wanna use it.. the question is : would they be compelled to use it?

my answer would be : nope. i think that mostly depends on the players themselves. many people have played other games with FOW before and it doesn't automatically compel them to savescum. this is just a biased assumption on your part.

as for the predators. the problem is that the game doesn't automatically sense them as an "enemy" so they can bypass the turrets and you need to manually attack them. this sounds more like a bug that will eventually get fixed.

----

edit :

sample notifications for events when they occurred in FOW :

-"you hear the sound of digging somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (is it sappers? is it an infestation? how many?)

-"you hear the howl of a wild animal somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (is it a mad squirrel? a bear? how many?)

-"you see the silhouette of a large majestic creature somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (search and hunt for the elusive and rare thrumbo)

etc..

the "mystery" is part of the story.


rexx1888

this is a thing ive railed on extensively before, an me an Keg have had angry rude words about it before, an it always comes back to "we dont know".

However, those conversations also involved me devising a basic design wherein colonists actually reacted to threats they came into contact with even if the player wasnt there. it was theoretical then.. an now its not. Hell, its current implementation is pretty close to what i proposed then so thats rad. In fact, im calling that a win for me :P anyone that really wants to actually discover stuff should be comforted by the fact that that behavior is literally the first step to implementing any kind of FoW SPECIFICALLY because it removes alot of the "gotcha" from actually not seeing the greater world. Tynan doesnt want to dick anyone over. On the other hand, RW needs some uncertainty in it. It NEEDS it. Thats why so many people dig mountain tunnels even after they are constantly made harder to do. Its specifically to see what they can find. Because they dont know whats there.

So take heart other seekers of mystery. Though mean words may be uttered backhandedly at you for suggesting it, your ideas are not inherently bad. You are not a bad person for uttering words about something that interests you. You may one day even get what you want.

Kegereneku

Note: If you already know that FoW is like using a Jackhammer to sculpt a tiny Diamonds, skip to rexx1888 quote
Also this post is chockfull of rhetorical questions. Meaning that I don't expect answers. Just saying.
And I should really stop making RIVER OF TEXT on topic that have already been discussed to death.

Quote from: keylocke on May 02, 2016, 06:27:46 PM
and yea, i've read the links in kegereneku's post and his arguments and here's my take on it :

Thank you for your long rereading but there is many things you missed along their consequences (even with RIVER OF TEXTS I expected better). I obviously know that "other game work with FoW". You however don't seem to have considered WHY other game would use or not a FoW in the first place.

Some game are simply NOT MEANT to have FoW (see the Chess example here).

Other example : Why are FoW-strategy game using Expandable Scout ? Camera ? Long Range Sensor ? Stealth Unit ? ...rather than unique, slow and irreplaceable pawns with complex and hard upkeep that can't fight alone ? That's because they have different dynamic that you can't simply slap on Rimworld.

"FOG OF WAR" ISN'T A GOAL. ONLY AN OPTIONAL MEAN. A MEAN THAT YOU MIGHT NEVER NEED.

Quoteadding more combat elements doesn't impede the storytelling in any way
You'll find out that it does. Depending of who you let define "more" and how many time you let him do it.
Also, yes the very concept of "Fog of War" work completely against Rimworld Storytelling, see below

Quotemy view on this is that : if none of your colonists is within viewing distance of the "event" or "story" taking place, then you can just let your imagination run wild.
Following that logic, all best-seller books should have blank pages, all movies be black screen, and Dwarf Fortress should only show one square at a time to let your imagination run wilder.
I send you to my Alfred Hitchcock point here about creating suspense versus "ass pull".

Quoteie : there could be notifications of an event happening, but if you wanna witness what's actually going on, then you should send someone to scout and "witness" the event occurring.
Sorry but that's "POINTLESS HASSLE - THE GAME".
Why POINTLESS : Because ultimately you WANT the information to plan your survival or just to have FUN.
Why HASSLE : Do you seriously want to send a SCOUT every time a drop pods fall ? Do you want 5 colons on 10 patrolling the entire map for 50% of their time rather than... interacting with other features ? Will you follow each one of them in case they find something out of BLIND LUCK, to be warned soon enough ?

Quoteanyways, in the older alphas, people were "confused" by the FOW coz there were not enough notification systems in place
Quote<--- notifications can just alert the player of the general location of an event the same way it does now. but depending on the type of event, guard and patrols are essentially just an automated attack system

You are basically negating your argumentation for FoW and Patrol.
Even Scouting barely survive... Reading and reading you again your argumentation now have for only purpose to justify colonist walking from known point to another known point, to avoid the frustration of not knowing the smallest details of an event you already know about. Where is the fun in that ? It is in wasting your time ? It is in Trial&Error savescumming ? Is Realism orgasmic ?

Better idea : Let's pretend that during the 15 days long seasons the colonist already patrolled the map.
It's an idea so awesome it require absolutely nothing to do and meanwhile you can do a lot of other stuff.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 03, 2016, 11:42:23 AM
this is a thing ive railed on extensively before, an me an Keg have had angry rude words about it before, an it always comes back to "we dont know".

However, those conversations also involved me devising a basic design wherein colonists actually reacted to threats they came into contact with even if the player wasnt there. it was theoretical then.. an now its not. Hell, its current implementation is pretty close to what i proposed then so thats rad. In fact, im calling that a win for me :P anyone that really wants to actually discover stuff should be comforted by the fact that that behavior is literally the first step to implementing any kind of FoW SPECIFICALLY because it removes alot of the "gotcha" from actually not seeing the greater world. Tynan doesnt want to dick anyone over. On the other hand, RW needs some uncertainty in it. It NEEDS it. Thats why so many people dig mountain tunnels even after they are constantly made harder to do. Its specifically to see what they can find. Because they dont know whats there.

So take heart other seekers of mystery. Though mean words may be uttered backhandedly at you for suggesting it, your ideas are not inherently bad. You are not a bad person for uttering words about something that interests you. You may one day even get what you want.

After answering Keylocke I'm happy to discuss with someone constructive like you.
Yes it was a win for you, suggesting that ""Colonist React to Threat Without Player Supervision"", who could have guessed it was possible without FoW & Dedicated Patrol ?!

Yes, Rimworld need "Uncertainty", Precise ones, built to minimize pointless hassle yet maximize Decision-Making and the "Gocha" effect.
We don't send Colonist check every walls to know what material its made off. Don't we ? That's because the "Go Look" gameplay serve no purpose, while the "plan a minning effort + contingency" should be favored at all cost.

Thing is : You can have that "Uncertainty" even (or especially) with the current omniscience ("Enhanced User Interface" as I call it).
The number of potential outcome is linked to how much data you are given at any time. This is the difference between Tic-Tac-Toe and a game of Go.

I'm out.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

keylocke

#13
QuoteSome game are simply NOT MEANT to have FoW (see the Chess example here).

sure, "some" games are not meant for FOW, however whether rimworld is compatible with FOW is still debatable which is why it keeps getting suggested by people. i am one of those people who thinks it IS compatible. just because you disagree doesn't make you automatically right and vice versa. you've been wrong a few times before especially when it comes to what is impossible to be added to rimworld.

QuoteYou'll find out that it does. Depending of who you let define "more" and how many time you let him do it.

again, this is just your personal bias. have you ever played games like sunless sea? "mystery" adds to the storytelling by letting you uncover details of the events instead of just giving you an information overload. if a notification gives you enough clues and points you out to location of the event. the player will have enough information to make rational choices, but the details are hidden so the tension between the "mystery" and the "revelation" is rife with drama.

you seem to downplay how powerful an impact "mystery" has over how a story progresses. an information overload tends to be quite a boring narrative.

QuoteSorry but that's "POINTLESS HASSLE - THE GAME".
Why POINTLESS : Because ultimately you WANT the information to plan your survival or just to have FUN.
Why HASSLE : Do you seriously want to send a SCOUT every time a drop pods fall ? Do you want 5 colons on 10 patrolling the entire map for 50% of their time rather than... interacting with other features ? Will you follow each one of them in case they find something out of BLIND LUCK, to be warned soon enough ?

you have this tendency of making strawman arguments that is easily debunked. a notification can provide enough clues and information to warrant the need to send a scout to figure out a detail. plus, who says you need "10 men patrolling 50% of the time"? haha. the patrols are like mobile meat-turret jobs for your assassins/nobles/etc.. people who are usually idle coz they have no other tasks to do. patrols main job are for intercepting minor threats like mad animals and predators.

as for raids : maybe different raids have different notifications than normal cargo pods? that is something that is easily fixed. however, the details of those raids, like what are their equipment? how many people do they have? etc.. i think those things should be withheld coz it breaks the tension..

if you see the enemies are weak or very strong, you already automatically know without FOW. this information overload decreases drama. it's just a flat out narrative.

but with FOW, tension in every battle is palpable.. this tension is dramatic, coz you don't know if you're facing just a few enemies or a swarm. different people will react differently to this "unknown" provocation. some people will be aggressive and will try to send scouts to figure out more details, other people bunker down fearing the unknown.

the game can provide you with enough clues via notification to prepare accordingly. but the "mystery" is a powerful tool in storytelling, it makes even normal encounters more dramatic.

QuoteYou are basically negating your argumentation for FoW and Patrol.
Even Scouting barely survive... Reading and reading you again your argumentation now have for only purpose to justify colonist walking from known point to another known point, to avoid the frustration of not knowing the smallest details of an event you already know about. Where is the fun in that ? It is in wasting your time ? It is in Trial&Error savescumming ? Is Realism orgasmic ?

Better idea : Let's pretend that during the 15 days long seasons the colonist already patrolled the map.
It's an idea so awesome it require absolutely nothing to do and meanwhile you can do a lot of other stuff.

you seem to be misconstruing what a "patrol" and "scouts" are.

a "scout" is just someone you can send to investigate an event that occurred hidden in FOW if the notifications "intrigued" you. ie : if you think it warrants your attention. you are in no way required to send scouts all the time.

a "patrol" are just idle people you have around that you can automatically set to walk around in groups automatically attacking mad animals and predators that are within your patrol route. they're like a temporary group of mobile meat-turrets.

so, "wasting time" isn't exactly what they're doing. most of your assumptions are based on your faulty interpretations of what each tasks are supposed to do.


Darth Fool

It is not surprising that any proposal that hints of FoW brings out the usual highly vocal suspects of FoW haters.  Let me advise you that it is useless to try and argue with them.  Rational arguments will fall on deaf ears.  They are unable to recognize that games like chess can and have been successfully modified to include FoW.  The question of FoW is largely one of preferred style, but they are unable to imagine any style other than what they have experienced as adding anything to the game.  To put it succinctly, they fear the unknown.  The only way to ever convince them of the playability of FoW is to actually implement FoW.  I suggest that if you wish to discuss your ideas that have any FoW related features, that you completely ignore those who will declare its evils no matter how much text they vomit up.  Do not try and argue with them and just carry on as if they are a crazed Muffalo attacking Raiders outside your sphere of knowledge.  To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and will let them derail what might otherwise be an interesting thread.