Fog of war?

[woolfoma]

    Ok, so has anyone ever thought that it's weird that we seem to have some sort of "satellite", magical, I-can-see-forever type view.
    Well I have, and while Rimworld isn't a war game, I think it could definitely benefit from some sort of "fog of war", meaning you could only see what your pawns would see (not a cone of vision though, a whole circle around them would be visible)
    Also only enemy/animal pawns, items not in stockpiles, and land/buildings you've never seen before would be invisible when you have no sight of the area, along something like a toggle-able overlay of where you can and can't see, just so you know where enemies could be hiding if you want.
    Anyways, I wanted to know what other people think of this (and of course you tynan ^_^ ) so I created this pole.

[SpaceDrunk]

Apparently it used to be in the game at one point but people didn't like it, so the dev took it out. Given the scale of the map, I can't say I'm really that bothered to be honest.

[KillTyrant]

This is something that always makes its rounds ever couple days or so. The search tab is your friend, I promise. That being said, I think it should be a toggleable feature.

[rexx1888]

the search function yields a nice big huge ass list of non relevant conversations, and a single thread from 2013.. so i aint going any further back to ask these questions, im not interested in necroing threads, and im new to the community.

point is, why the hell did people not like the fog of war?? did they still get updates that told them stuff had fallen onto the map that they couldnt see(couse thatd be annoying) and or was it actually a part of the experience or just a tacked on extra(since it seems like its pretty old in development).

i just cant for the life of me see how fog of war and actual darkness in the game would make the experience negative, specially compared to the fifty thousand suicidal tribals or the sieges that arent all that good at their job --> hey boss, should we like, keep them in their home while we shoot at them... nah bob, well just hang out in our square of sandbags, theyll die eventual.. *SPLAT*

rimworld to me seems like it wants to create a sense of survival against the odds, your colonists versus the world an such... omnipotence will litterally never help that. So can some old timer explain to me why people found it infuriating?? was it just that the ai couldnt handle it?

[Turps]

Totally against it. Its your base/home and ur gonna know what's happening near and around it i.e the map size. The fog is on the outside of the map. If ever implemented to the map it would be a serious kick in the balls for the game and would have to be toggleable and also apply to enemies as well.

[Silvador]

Given the scale of the maps, as someone else has mentioned above, I see little point in having it. However, I do also see how some would enjoy having it. It doesn't bother me not having it, but I wouldn't mind trying a few games with it. I'd say make it an toggle-able option, so players can either have it or not have it at their own discretion, should they desire a more immersive or challenging game.

[rexx1888]

i agree in regards to enemies, that creates better gameplay. but as to it being your home. sure you can certainly learn about the geography around your home(that would be removing the shroud if were gonna talk in the sense of a fog system. the shrouds the black stuff, the fog sits under that). but that doesnt mean you should be omnipotent. more important, why does that kill it for you though. you say your against it but your reasoning is basically just "because reasons".

an toggleable seems like a solid choice, but im still not getting the whole "little point in having it". for one, it creates a bit more of an organic map, less random squares. for another, it will lower the min maxing of a colony for the first few months an get people used to just setting up shop. importantly for me though, itll reduce alot of the hauling overhead by shedloads, and would allow the map to be a bit more organic. i seriously dont see downfalls... well, i see one. specifically sieges will be a shit to deal with, but thats why enemies should have to deal with the fog too. they'd have to actually spot your base before they start shelling. aside from that though*, this isnt really telling me why people dislike it?

*that though may be a big enough reason to not worry about it for a long while. ai is always a bitch, but im still curious

[Mikhail Reign]

Eh. Given the current game mechanics, I don't really see the need. Some of the smaller maps are only the distance across of the range of a sniper rifle x2-3, and obviously people would have to be able see at least the range of their gun making the FOW basically pointless. Also, there is already a 'FOW' of sorts - areas that are closed off aren't revealed.

[b0rsuk]

The last thread about Fog of War, 8 pages long, is here: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.0
If you truly want to know what others thing about the issue, including the developer, read the whole thread.

Some people prefer mystery and surprising events generated by systems and emergence. Others, like Tynan, prefer randomly generated events through "director". They hit you out of nowhere and you have no chance of anticipating them.

This discussion is closed until someone has something new and constructive to add to it.

I wonder how does the moderator recognize someone has new and constructive things to say if they can't post in that thread.

[Alistaire]

Fog of War is handled very well in Gnomoria:

• If it's lit, you can see it;
• If it's not lit, you can't see it.

This means that you really have lots of Fog of War at night, and almost none in the day.

It would make sense from a tactical standpoint to build lights around your base, so you could see an enemy's troop size.
During a siege you could wait for the night so the enemy's Fog of War can't spot your snipers easily.

These mechanics would be great for random events such as burglars, which would try to remain in the dark and steal your stuff. You'd have to counteract this by placing turrets less densely packed around the base or by placing a bunch of spotlights.



TL;DR

• Works in Gnomoria;
• Only affects night;
• Adds tactical decisions: turrets or lights;
• Allows burglar random events.

[akiceabear]

Some people on this forum agree with you quite strongly that FOW would be a great mechanic to add. I am one of them, and think on the list of "Things to maybe do" it is the most meaningful and feasible at this point in development. I would have much rather seen FOW implemented before joy (or at least some of its sources), for example, which for me takes the game thematically in a different direction than I prefer with my shipwreck-survival-"sims".

That said, it does seem the majority of the players that post here are only lukewarm or outright oppose in this type of mechanic - essentially because they dislike what supporters like about it. Whenever the topic comes up, the thread inevitable breaks down into descriptions of each sides' ideal game, with both sides talking past each other until it gets unpleasant/repetitive. Tynan seems to side with "them" - which is his prerogative and can't really be faulted, as its a huge style/taste issue.

Given all of that, it's a shame, but I don't think its worth wasting your efforts debating it further (especially only a few weeks after a similar thread was shut down) - better luck modding that in yourself, or finding a game elsewhere that scratches that itch.

[rexx1888]

im not here to debate it

im a designer, i like to hear the things that communities and people have to say. an Rimworld is an interesting thing for me to watch as it goes forward. its rare that i disagree with decisions that Tynan makes about design in regards to his game, so it surprises me that it seems that way on this. ill read the other thread.

having said that, im still interested to specifically hear what it takes away from the experience for individuals. im wondering if this is an occasion where sensible design doesnt necessarily feel right in play. it happens. Im also curious if its just that it isnt generally done in sims and people just balk at the idea of it. There is a darkness mod out there tries to jerry rig the game to work much like gnomoria does, but the systems just arent in place to do it well at the moment.

personally i still find it jarring to be omniscient, thats where i stand, and it seems to me that the overall design is trying to move away from that omniscience(locking doors an such) so i was just cursiou since this seemed like such a hotly debated thing

Edit: welp, i read that thread. its disturbing to me that a half dozen people argued in favour of a thing, and one angry person managed to belittle, derail and generally nay say them into having the thread closed down. thats outrageous, and the moderator was correct in shutting down that thread.

As such, ill add something constructive. Its clear the ai isnt capable of dealing with it at the moment. So, part of the objectives for implementing a fog system would have to be an overhaul of enemy ai(both siege and raiders, as well as visitors). that overhaul isnt a small thing, so i cant imagine this would be a week long job.  Follow on, it sounds like the only thing actively lost from fog is players being able to watch the world interact with itself. Thats not a small thing, but its also not a particularly big thing. the story RW tells is the story of the colonists, thats the one players care about. thats the one that should be interesting to watch.

So, we would lose a chunk of dev time, and the ability to watch the world interact with itself easily. However, i believe(an it seems alot of others do too) that wed gain mystery, a sense of actual danger and being alone. A lack of verisimilitude breaking omnicience, and the information overload will be removed. the feeling of working might even be lessened as players wont just be hauling everything ever. An hell, wed gain a smarter AI thats more interesting to interact with(which i am a big fan of personally). Theres probably more, but in balance, a fog system is a hell of a gain by my math. there's my constructive thoughts

[ZestyLemons]

I think fog of war is too much of an RTS element and detracts from the stories of RimWorld overall.

It's also not very balanced - raiders and berserk animals automatically seek/find colonists, while the player wouldn't be able to see them or attack them back if they're in the fog of war.

[Kegereneku]

This isn't because you can add a feature or a level of complexity that it will improve a game.

Rimworld isn't a military RTS where one can produce scout and guards that stay idle indefinitely, nor sacrifice unit on a bad decision and still win thanks to the data gained this way.
Rimworld is a Storytelling game where you need all the help you can have to narrate the heroic and creative struggle of your band of survivors against various events, but to do that you need to see the events in question and be able to make creative plan.

FoW is one of those feature that aim to defeat itself : Your goal will always be to fight it off until you get a reasonable grasp of the map, for RW it mean "see everything that matter".
Lastly, FoW is also playing against creativity by inciting failsafe plan that won't result in your reloading a save 10 time because you lost a colonist without knowing what it was up against.

[b0rsuk]

Rimworld is a storytelling game with no mystery, and no surprise. You see in advance everything that's going to happen unless it's spawned by a Director.