Best and worst skills in A16

Started by b0rsuk, February 09, 2017, 05:20:01 PM

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b0rsuk

#60
Quote from: Perq on February 17, 2017, 02:20:22 AM
Quote from: Trylobyte on February 16, 2017, 10:47:54 PM
Melee skill increases DPS only because melee skill affects hit chance.  It doesn't affect damage or attack speed, which are determined by the weapon.
Noooope. While it doesn't affect attack speed (which is determined by the weapon), damage IS increased by the skill of the wielder.
If you are at your computer (I'm sadly not atm, could just make some screenshots), check the details on equipped melee weapon and then click on damage. You'll get a detailed list of what affects it. Skill level is sure on that list. :P

Weird you are arguing that melee is bad without even fully understanding how it works, eh? :P

Dweeb has skill 7 and the Brawler trait.

Damage on the equipped weapon:


Damage in the DPS (Damage Per Second) formula:


Damage per hit is affected by weapon, its material, quality, and its health. Neither skill nor Brawler trait increases damage, note the 2nd picture and base weapon damage is the same. Skill and brawler only affect hit chance, which generally increases damage dealt over time.

The end.


Perq

Yup, I'm wrong. Translation is wrong, to be more precise. :P In Polish translation there is a "skill" multiplier, but it really is QUALITY multiplier.
Given the values themselves it seems that melee does really have really low impact.

All in all value is still pretty high, but melee skill itself should affect it more.
I'm nobody from nowhere who knows nothing about anything.
But you are still wrong.

XeronX

This is a little off topic, but since the unlimited silver supply came up and it is part of the skill problem indirectly....

With the fact we all work our pawns everyday, 10+ hours a day. I am surprised none of them ever want to be paid. Yeah i know there isn't really a economy for them to need paychecks, but could you imagine if they expected to be paid. And if the amount that they had to be paid was tied into whatever skill they were mostly using and pro-rated for the level of the skill. That 20 skill passion researcher would really cost you bank.

A decent way to not only put a curb to the money supply issue, but make having people to make money be a necessary part of a thriving colony. And the fun mood hits when you couldn't afford to pay them lol.

Limdood

Quote from: XeronX on February 17, 2017, 08:47:42 PM
This is a little off topic, but since the unlimited silver supply came up and it is part of the skill problem indirectly....

With the fact we all work our pawns everyday, 10+ hours a day. I am surprised none of them ever want to be paid. Yeah i know there isn't really a economy for them to need paychecks, but could you imagine if they expected to be paid. And if the amount that they had to be paid was tied into whatever skill they were mostly using and pro-rated for the level of the skill. That 20 skill passion researcher would really cost you bank.

A decent way to not only put a curb to the money supply issue, but make having people to make money be a necessary part of a thriving colony. And the fun mood hits when you couldn't afford to pay them lol.

In a way, they do expect to be paid....have your pawns set to only work and sleep, and you'll soon end up with a -20 totally joy deprived mood penalty...use nutrient paste exclusively for food saving, and you stack more penalties on top....pretty soon the pawn will "strike" by mental breaking.  Since it is pure survival, you merely have to "pay" the pawns by keeping them happy enough not to break, which is pretty accurate of modern economy (pay employees enough to keep them coming into work each day...no matter what that "enough" entails)

b0rsuk

So people think Mining is a bad skill outside of mountain bases, because you will get all that ore sooner or later anyway. They have a point. Outside of edge cases like large maps in cold biomes, mining speed doesn't matter much.

At the same time I'm annoyed pretty much anyone is good at stonecutting or tree cutting. I think tree cutting has been recently linked to Growing skill (again), but it's just trading one bad thing for another. Planting strawberries shouldn't be as physically exhausting as chopping trees.

Idea: combine Mining, Tree Cutting and Stonecutting. The new skill would be 'Hard Work'. It makes quite a bit of sense that a person good at mining would be pretty good at stonecutting or cutting trees. At least this way colonist doing this kind of work will get some related benefits.

My earlier, more elaborate proposal based on a system similar to needs/addictions:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=20381.0

Stormfox

Quote from: b0rsuk on February 23, 2017, 01:32:25 PM
So people think Mining is a bad skill outside of mountain bases, because you will get all that ore sooner or later anyway. They have a point. Outside of edge cases like large maps in cold biomes, mining speed doesn't matter much.

At the same time I'm annoyed pretty much anyone is good at stonecutting or tree cutting. I think tree cutting has been recently linked to Growing skill (again), but it's just trading one bad thing for another. Planting strawberries shouldn't be as physically exhausting as chopping trees.

Idea: combine Mining, Tree Cutting and Stonecutting. The new skill would be 'Hard Work'. It makes quite a bit of sense that a person good at mining would be pretty good at stonecutting or cutting trees. At least this way colonist doing this kind of work will get some related benefits.

I like the idea. Call it "Labor" and make all those "will not haul" guys into "will not do Labor, but do other basic stuff". Solves two things with one change.

SpaceDorf

At first I was a bit offended by B0rsuk because planting and cutting is pretty much the job Description of gardening.

But putting physical labor into one skill sounds to good to pass.

Personally I would prefer if a Job uses multiple skills and every skill had synergie effects on the base statistics of the pawn. Like traits do now

Wood chopping and mining should synergize with melee for instance. Being stronger should affect hauling capacity ...and so on
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
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b0rsuk

#67
Only cutting *trees* would be taken away from Growing. When clearing trees, I often don't care which colonists do it, or rather I assign it to colonists with no important things to do. Trees are often cut just to clear an area because wood is usually low value material.

SpaceDorf

@B0rsuk
I got that about the trees :)
And I support your notion ... I just wanted to differentiate between my oppinion before and after I thought about it.
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

b0rsuk

#69
"Labor" could include smelting as well.

There is a potential problem.
Currently those jobs - tree cutting, mining, stonecutting, smelting are under 3 work checkboxes. While thematically it would make sense to put them under a single checkbox - it would be awkward. The jobs are similar in that colonist goes and works on a static thing for a moderate amount of time, and thematically they need strength. They also provide resources. But these things have different priorities:
- tree cutting is important if you want to build, not so important otherwise.
- mining can be top priority if you lack steel
- stonecutting has high priority if you lack stone blocks
- smelting is high priority if smelter is on, because it uses A LOT of power.
If they were all under the same checkbox, player would have to often suspend one of bills.

On the other hand, current system is awkward because first I assign no-skills to plant cutting, then they finish cutting trees and damage my harvest.

b0rsuk

By the way, Art and Animals skills could be improved with these fun and flavorful additions:

* playing instruments, providing joy for others within certain distance, even through walls if they're not too thick. This would really flesh out minstrel and bard backgrounds.
* fishing. Based on Animals skill, it would allow a colonist to get food from a water pond, even in winter.

Limdood

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 08, 2017, 01:59:19 AM
* fishing. Based on Animals skill, it would allow a colonist to get food from a water pond, even in winter.

How do you keep fishing from permanently trivializing food?

SpaceDorf

Quote from: Limdood on March 08, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 08, 2017, 01:59:19 AM
* fishing. Based on Animals skill, it would allow a colonist to get food from a water pond, even in winter.

How do you keep fishing from permanently trivializing food?

limited, slow regenerating fish supply, based on the size of the body of water
in combination with fishing skill.


Oh .. and the Best skill in Rimworld is :

Art .. It generates money, has a single workbench it is attached too and a single priority setting. Very easy to manage ^^

Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

b0rsuk

Quote from: SpaceDorf on March 08, 2017, 09:21:35 AM
Quote from: Limdood on March 08, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 08, 2017, 01:59:19 AM
* fishing. Based on Animals skill, it would allow a colonist to get food from a water pond, even in winter.

How do you keep fishing from permanently trivializing food?

limited, slow regenerating fish supply, based on the size of the body of water
in combination with fishing skill.

That, and predators competing with you. Ponds would attract (polar) bears, seals. Ponds wouldn't regenerate fast enough to be worth building a base around. Fishes would be small animals, you'd need to catch a lot of them so to be cost effective you would have to build small fishing cabins around the map with temporary fish stockpiles. Also, you need some kind of bait. A colonist with low Animals skill would use too much food for bait because of more failed attempts.

Limdood

what about coasts?

also:
QuoteAlso, you need some kind of bait. A colonist with low Animals skill would use too much food for bait because of more failed attempts.
This would compound the already existing serious problem of the animal skill - its useless at low levels but you can't train it up because...its useless at low levels