Merging logs and planks

[Plunkett]

Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.

When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.

Well I'm always following development - when will 4f be released? As would it be possible to add the 15x speed in too. And I completely agree for now but in the future when the technology age progression has been fleshed out, similar to RTS games - although the focus will most likely be on defences and power.

One question: do wood floors give a negative effect and are metal chairs > wooden chairs? As from an aesthetic appeal wood tiles and wooden furniture do look good and would provide a warmer atmosphere, cf metal.

[Untrustedlife]

Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.

When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.

what was broken on animal insanity waves?

[Jotun]

My big concern is inflating the number of objects. Now you're looking at:

Log wall
Wood wall
Metal wall
Stone wall

Log bed
Wood bed
Metal bed

And tons of other near-duplicates.

My ongoing thoughts on this are: Maybe it would be better to say that logs and planks are usable for almost all the same things, except the things are modified somehow. This becomes a "material system" where a bed can be made of tons of different things, each which modifies its stats somehow. This would also extend into making spruce beds, granite walls, basalt walls, oak log walls, oak plank walls, and tons of pretty dwarfy goodness.

I also like the fact that this is pretty ignorable for new players. My main concern with planks now is that they're such a burden at game start, but if we can have single items which are modified by their construction materials that might reduce the burden a lot because then you could to basically everything with logs and leave refined planks as a later-game, prettier, better material for when you've teched up instead of an immediate requirement at game start.

A [Material][Object] system would be interesting, and potentially a good way to de-clutter things while keeping some detail.

As you say you only need one bed, a bed is a bed, it takes up a bit of space and lets you sleep on it, but the option of being able to specify its material to improve it would be neat.

Perhaps have a library of materials based on multipliers to different stats.

So logs would be say, +15% health, -10% beauty, +100% flammability. Things made of them would be therefore slightly more durable, slightly uglier, and able to catch fire.

Stone could be +30% health, -100% flammability, so it would be tougher, no effect on beauty, and non-flammable.

From this you could make a bunch of things into stats, walls would have a health stat, a flammability stat, a load bearing stat (how far away a roof can be from this wall) and possibly a damage reduction stat for making them bullet resistant or something.

Beds would have a health stat, flammability again, a resting stat (how good they are at restoring sleep need), and a beauty stat (as furniture).

Even things like meals and foods could be done this way, a meal can be made of a specific food material, which would modify its nutrition, enjoyability, and preservation stats. Some foods might make faster rotting meals but more nutritious meals, some might make tasty but non-nutritious meals, that sort of thing.

Dunno, if you'e considering a material system you could do a lot with it, it depends how complicated and in-depth you want the potential for micromanagement to be. You could always make things superficially usable by defaulting to a sensible material for each construction, walls default to wood or metal, beds do not try to be made out of potatoes unless you tell them to, etc. But if you want to put the complexity in there you can, and it shouldn't clutter up the menus a lot.

[Kazzier]

Personally I like the option of having multiple different materials to make different objects. The more the better, it adds the feeling of personal customization, thus making the base "YOURS".

However,
At the moment it seems too much work for my men, especially at the begining of the game to waste time cutting tress, then cutting the wood, then having to construct an object. Anything like that should be late game content, not so early on in base development.

[Sion]

Logs --> Hopper --> Past Dispenser --> Wood Paste --> 3D-Printer --> Planks 

[Sion]

A more serious post now;
My biggest problem with wood is that it burns (as it should do), therefore you can't realistically build a outside base with wood, because much of it will be ashes after the next raid and you have to start again, especially if a couple of raiders uses Molotov's.

However I like the idea of merging wood, then it is more the same as metal.

edit: It would be cool with a campfire where the colonists can make their food the first days, but it should require (1?) wood for each cooking.
Mmmm, grilled boom rat on a stick 

[Nasikabatrachus]

A more serious post now;
My biggest problem with wood is that it burns (as it should do), therefore you can't realistically build a outside base with wood, because much of it will be ashes after the next raid and you have to start again, especially if a couple of raiders uses Molotov's.

Honestly, fire doesn't seem that dangerous, unless almost everyone is incapacitated. If 4-6 colonists are able to stand up and fight fire after a battle, they can prevent most fire damage a wooden structure is likely to experience. I got a mechanoid attack with two inferno cannons, but despite that the base you see here only lost a couple stretches of the outer wall to the south and some of the inner wall:

http://puu.sh/9jz6s/3820d963a1.png

And that was after that screenshot was taken, when there was a turret inside. The turret itself actually did 1/3 of the overall damage when it exploded.

So, IMO, fire is underpowered right now. On the other hand, if wood floors could burnâ€"well, that will be an interesting day.

[jankhambrams]

I haven't had a problem with the different kinds of wood--I found it easy enough to build a hand sawmill on the first day and get a small building with wood plank walls and basic furnishings/cookstove by the second or third.  I do, however, understand the appeal of simplifying it.

I also like the idea of things being able to be made from different things (beds, for example, as stated in another comment), especially if the interface is intuitive enough.

On another note, this being my first post, I've really enjoyed RimWorld so far and greatly look forward to seeing what else is done with it!  I haven't been very excited about many early access games, but this one is most certainly keeping me entertained!  Keep up the great work!

[rebelbinary]

Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.

When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.

Hey Tynan

I've taken some time off my game and got back into Rimworld, like a lot of the new improvements but was surprised some stuff like medic packs and rocket turrets still not implemented (things I would really enjoy using).  Still loving the game though

Just my opinion but I think you should probably set up some kind of master plan (I know you hate plans so lets call it a map) for the things you really really want in the game and how you'd go about making them and any material that serves no purpose except as intermediary remove it since it's not a focus of your current game mechanics. If raw metal can be used to create automatic gun turrets, why would you need a saw to make planks out of wood to make a rudimentary table?

[dazhat]

Now I have seen the DF version of resource/item managment written down, I think i really like it.

[beeeeber]

I honestly think this is the worst kind of thing who can happen to RW. To be stripped down from the depth of gameplay at this stage.
I know and perfectly understand the systems isnt perfectly able to play with it, this is alpha  after all. BUT this is an OPEN alpha, which mean people will already seek gameplay and depth. Right now RW biggest problem is you just have to build two rooms for survive. After that, this is just a question of managing raiders & tactics.
When i bought RimWorld (and I so fucking glad I did it !), my interrest for the game was in the balanced state between tactic fighting rts and the survival aspect. Right now, the game lacks content, we all know it and that not important. But if you manage strip down everything you put in place two weeks after that :
1. Progress will be slowers from customer point of view
2. all the interest of the game will be in fighting. Which mean it will be boring as fuck after two day. Gamer need to be able to "go into it". This is exactly the same kind of question when it come to graphic ; I LOVE your choice of a simple graphic set, which let people play with their own imagination. You dont tell a story here, you put tools to create a story. More tools, more enjoyable the story are.
2. Modding enjoyement will be less practicable. Wood economy right now is not about getting the right balance, but be able to create new set of tools to let the modders do the rest. Log & plank give me planty of idea, to me and other modders. And even if you plan to reintroduce them later, modders will experience  lack of "official" possibility.

In other words : let planks economy be put in an official mod, like royal bed or blasting charge.
This is the first time I though the devellopement was getting a step backward.
Anyway, great work, and keep it up ! (and sorry about my crappy english !)

[Sion]

I agree with Beeeeber, if it is possible/easy then use Wood as default then there can be a
mod that separates it into Wood and Planks, not necessarily created by Tynan.

[SPAZZx7]

I would rather them not be merged, i believe it will only add to the depth in the long run.

It adds that extra layer to plan around when attempting to finish a simple base layout.
Which i enjoy.

But there should probably be a more distinct difference in crafted wood than logs, but i believe that will solve itself in time when more objects begin to be released.

But thats just me.

[johnpaul_riley]

Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.

When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.

Elegant and extensible.    Each object able to be produced from a wide array of different materials, with different properties.

Want a wall?  Want the wall to be stone, logs, planks, or metal?

Well, how do I choose? 
A stone wall is tough and doesn't burn ... but can't transmit electricity and requires carving raw stone into blocks first.

A log wall is cheap and fast to build, but it burns, isn't that tough, and can't transmit electricity.   Great choice to fence in my fields, poor choice to build my houses or main defensive wall.

A plank wall is tougher than a log wall, transmits electricity, but it burns and requires sawing logs into planks first.  Good choice for my interior walls, maybe not so great for exterior walls.

Etc, Etc....

This can be extended to many kinds of construction.  For some construction, maybe it doesn't make sense to have it available for only one material.   A wooden nutrient paste dispenser?   Maybe not ... but perhaps metal could be refined into electronic components, and you would need X electronic components + (Wood OR Stone OR Metal).   Electronic components for the science-ey stuff and the other for the chassis.  Want a Nutrient paste dispenser that is less prone to shorting and can't catch fire?  Use Stone.   Want it on the cheap with a widely available material?  Use wood, but it has a higher chance of shorting out.

And so on.

If I were as smart and talented and ambitous as Tynan, (: , I would make an elegant and extensible materials system just like that.

[Benny the Icepick]

I fully recognize that it would require a major revision to the game, but Pulaskimask's post on Page 4 nailed it for me:  introducing a tiered materials system that forces research to achieve refinement really streamlines the research tier, incentivizes research, and makes the game so much more realistic.

Beginning with basic building blocks like stone debris, slag, and logs provides you with the most basic amenities to survive with your sanity.  Further research tiers unlock the ability to create more refined materials (stone blocks, metal, and wood planks) which are needed for more advanced structures and buildings.

I can  understand why Ty would resist such a change.  Balancing such a system would be a full time job, for sure. You'd have to be certain that each raw material exists in reasonable abundance to make the game challenging but not impossible.  You'd have to tweak the raw materials and time required to convert them into refined materials, and you'd have to play with the materials costs of the advanced structures.  And to do it all in a not-quite linear way such that players could choose to go down one path but not another based on their preferred play style and the map in which they find themselves?  Hoo boy, that's a tall order.  But man, would it make for a fun game.