[1.0]Black Widows(03/21/19) - Killer Amazon Driders from Out of Space and Time~9

[Saebbi]

@ Saebbi: Hmm. Looks like you're getting an error in the pawnkind defs to me. Not sure what would cause that, though. I tried out your load order and loaded up alright. A couple things to check:




• Are you using the right versions of Alien Races (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839005762) and Alien Race Pregnancy (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1277918724)
respectively?

• Have you tried redownloading/re-extracting/reinstalling the Widows mod?
• If you have done both of the above, could you go into a bit more detail regarding when you get the blackscreen? When you select a scenario? Storyteller? Location? Pawns? Start up the actual colony for the first time? Which scenario/storyteller are you selecting, if you are able to select them? Knowing this could help me replicate the issue and resolve it. Sorry you're having issues! ^.^;;
  

@Umbreon117: They are indeed able to use weapons, including modded ones (at least, all the ones I've tested). Raiders are likely to spawn with mostly vanilla stuff, though. I've used Medieval Times with the mod and think it goes great. Speedy close combat units with an extra attack and warhammers is... fun. Haven't tried Rim of Magic yet, but, if it uses the same basic framework that the Vampires mod uses, it should be compatible with Widows no problem.

@JernFalk: I'll take a look into that mod. Thanks for the heads up!

Yeah, i tried with a fresh install and the issue seems to be starting the game in dev mode.
When i start the game normally and then activate dev mode it works fine, otherwise i get a blackscreen when generating the planet.

[zamnath]

@ Saebbi: Hmm. Looks like you're getting an error in the pawnkind defs to me. Not sure what would cause that, though. I tried out your load order and loaded up alright. A couple things to check:




• Are you using the right versions of Alien Races (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839005762) and Alien Race Pregnancy (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1277918724)
respectively?

• Have you tried redownloading/re-extracting/reinstalling the Widows mod?
• If you have done both of the above, could you go into a bit more detail regarding when you get the blackscreen? When you select a scenario? Storyteller? Location? Pawns? Start up the actual colony for the first time? Which scenario/storyteller are you selecting, if you are able to select them? Knowing this could help me replicate the issue and resolve it. Sorry you're having issues! ^.^;;
  

@Umbreon117: They are indeed able to use weapons, including modded ones (at least, all the ones I've tested). Raiders are likely to spawn with mostly vanilla stuff, though. I've used Medieval Times with the mod and think it goes great. Speedy close combat units with an extra attack and warhammers is... fun. Haven't tried Rim of Magic yet, but, if it uses the same basic framework that the Vampires mod uses, it should be compatible with Widows no problem.

@JernFalk: I'll take a look into that mod. Thanks for the heads up!

Yeah, i tried with a fresh install and the issue seems to be starting the game in dev mode.
When i start the game normally and then activate dev mode it works fine, otherwise i get a blackscreen when generating the planet.

Ah, so you got it working? Great! Yeah, starting a modded game while dev mode is enabled tends to cause all sorts of issues. I'd advise turning dev mode off any time you restart your game client. No problem to turn it back on once the game's loaded, as far as I know.


@SunSeeker: To get error logs, enable dev mode (you can do this in the game's options menu) and click the far left text box looking thinger that pops up in the top of your game when you do so. Should show you the errors. Then click on any of the red ones you see that look like they might be the culprit and choose "copy." You should then be able to paste onto a document you can link on here. If you haven't already, try the troubleshoot steps I mentioned earlier to Saebbi.

[Umbreon117]

Yeah, starting a modded game while dev mode is enabled tends to cause all sorts of issues. I'd advise turning dev mode off any time you restart your game client. No problem to turn it back on once the game's loaded, as far as I know.

I...didn't know that was a thing. In both A17 and B18 I have had very nearly all of my games started with Dev mode activated, even during the map creation. I don't remember having that problem once.

Thanks for responding to that problem, because not I can keep that from happening to me.

[Call me Arty]

 So, would this need a patch for EPOE/RSBE . . . or A Dog Said? *

Jokes aside, this looks pretty neat. No offense to the beloved exceptions of Leeani and Logann, but it's nice to see an exception to the usual race mod cliche of "what if we put an animal head on a person and tweaked the speed/temperature settings a bit?"

Some advice from somebody who didn't contribute to this mod in any way and has never written a line of code or drawn an art asset: I'd personally take a page or two out of Jecrell and Gouda Quiche's books. Jecrell developed the Arachnophobia mod, amongst many other things. While he could've added everything that would make someone fear a spider such as the hairy legs, the spiders we got are pretty tame, and thus fit well with the rest of the fauna in the game. From what I can see in the screenshot provided, there are a couple odd lines and details that make them stand-out from the typical Rim-critter. You mentioned him as somebody who helped you with some tough questions, so I'd also recommend taking a look through Gouda's Lighter Than Fast mod. It's an excellent example of someone going through the processes of refining an art style to one fitting more in-line with the game, and all of the screenshots are there to show how he did it.

I apologize if I came-off as too harsh on someone pursuing their own mod when - again - I haven't contributed to it or experienced the challenges of modding personally. I just hope that my post might be at least a little helpful!

*This is a joke, as the Widows are half human, and half animal-of-some-sort, implying that they would need both EPOE/RSBE and A Dog Said for max prosthesis.

[zamnath]

Yeah, starting a modded game while dev mode is enabled tends to cause all sorts of issues. I'd advise turning dev mode off any time you restart your game client. No problem to turn it back on once the game's loaded, as far as I know.

I...didn't know that was a thing. In both A17 and B18 I have had very nearly all of my games started with Dev mode activated, even during the map creation. I don't remember having that problem once.

Thanks for responding to that problem, because not I can keep that from happening to me.

Interesting. It's been happening to me since before I made this mod. Maybe it only happens if you're using certain types of mods? I was running a heavily modded setup pretty much from day 1, so it could make sense. Either way, never hurts to be careful.

@Arty EPOE is already supported. I'd have to look up RSBE patching, but I could probably do it if there was an interest. A dog said should go without saying. I certainly don't mind you're comments regarding the art style. Anything particularly jarring to you? The race's aesthetics, and the aesthetics of the already constructed clothes, aren't liable to change beyond minor adjustments as they fit my personal tastes. (It's odd to say that regarding humanoid spider monsters - hmm...) Everything else, though, is still quite mutable.

[Call me Arty]

@Arty EPOE is already supported. I'd have to look up RSBE patching, but I could probably do it if there was an interest. A dog said should go without saying. I certainly don't mind you're comments regarding the art style. Anything particularly jarring to you? The race's aesthetics, and the aesthetics of the already constructed clothes, aren't liable to change beyond minor adjustments as they fit my personal tastes. (It's odd to say that regarding humanoid spider monsters - hmm...) Everything else, though, is still quite mutable.

Unless I'm missing something, all I've got to go off is the one screenshot, so I'll use that. "Lovegood", in my personal opinion, looks the best. I could see her in my game tonight and it wouldn't bother me. Starting with Fiona, though, she kinda confuses me. I like the different spider-bods, don't get me wrong, it's really cool when most people just paint over the default male torso. However, the sharp angles and extra lines on the legs are a tad off-putting if you compare them to the rest of the sprites in the game that use lines as a valuable commodity. If you look at the Thrumbo next to the Muffalo. Lines are usually reserved for outlines and distinctive transitions between one body part to another. The muffalo has one overcoat, and thus has a "jagged" bottom to imply a bunch of low-hanging shaggy wool. The Thrumbo has thas soft, rounded undercoat, and a shaggy overcoat. There are probably layers to both of their fur, but it's treated as one later. It's hard to guess what the art director would do with limbs (since we don't exactly have references for them in the game), it's safe to assume they'd be just the one shape, like Lovegood's legs. This is also reflected in Fiona's torso. She's got two tones to the lower half of it, and the upper half is busy. She appears to have spikes on her sides, and it's a bit tough to tell if she's wearing a top with a Powergirl-style cleavage window, or some kind of Stormtrooper-style armor with the Spartanesque accented pecs. Setsuko's also got some notably busy legs, I can't tell if they're meant to be polka-dots or tendons. I apologize - once again, one screenshot, one angle - but the Widows have capital I shaped torsos, it seems, with ludicrously wide hips and . . . well, bosoms. It's understandable that they'd be more sultry since driders typically ride the line between sexy and terrifying, that waist is just way too thin, to the point that they're more lamp than hourglass. Finally, it seems like they're legs attached to a central orb with a torso on top. It's hard to explain, but it reminds me of this happy meal toy.

That's a lot of things to point out, but I hope it's a lot of tiny things rather than anything major and labor-intensive, mostly just a couple lines removed here or there. If I stepped out of line and made funnel-web lair out of a molehill, I apologize, as I am the master of minor annoyances and semantics. It's your mod, and it's looking real good for less than two full forum pages of development. Don't tell him I said this, but it took Gouda Quiche about a month and a saintly amount of patience dealing with me and Harry_Dicks until anything really started to settle in final-draft territory, and he's still added another four months of progress. You're not balancing five different races and all of their respective physiologies and technologies, though, so you've already got a great advantage. Don't let some nit-picking loser on the internet get you down.

[zamnath]

@Call me Arty:

Ah! Those are armors, not bodies. The Widows actually have a traditional "naked" (no detail) body and a series of armors that they can equip over them. Fiona's wearing the late game heavy armor equivalent, so I put more jagged bits and details in to try to create equivalency with some of the armor mods floating around on Steam. It sounds like it's coming across as more busy than detailed, though, so I'll see what I can do about making it clearer.

It's actually pretty funny to to hear you describe the Widows as thin. A (slightly out of date) shot with side and back views:



They're actually meant to combine the "black widow" theme with caricatured maternal figures. I had never even considered that their bellies would look like hips from the front (especially when wearing clothing). I'll have to ponder that one. What do you think, seeing them from all angles? Is the general outline clearer? Any suggestions?

No worries about stepping out of line. I can be stubborn when I decide I like a thing, but I'm always happy to hear suggestions. All you've done so far is give me extra perspective to help me improve on a creative work I'm doing for fun. Thank you very much for you help ^.^

[Call me Arty]

 Huh, that's actually kind of a neat idea, and the whole motherhood thing explains the why the pregnancy addon is getting so much attention out of this. That being said, I found out why I thought they were skinny (from the front): the little hands they have resting on their stomachs/midsection have little outlines. It works decently from the side, but from the front it makes them look like they're starving to the point where their pelvis is defined. I'd also try to lift their abdomen a tad, otherwise, it looks like they're kinda just dragging it along. Lastly, half of their legs look like they could stab you, and the other half look more Rimworld-round, so you might want to take a little bit tidying that up. Perhaps a softer end when unarmored, but they come to a point in armor?

[Umbreon117]

Bit of a random suggestion, but I do recommend watching Monster Musume. Or at least Rachnera. Rach is spider girl, and may help you out at getting Dimensions.

(Mandatory warning for Lewdness)

[Call me Arty]

Bit of a random suggestion, but I do recommend watching Monster Musume. Or at least Rachnera. Rach is spider girl, and may help you out at getting Dimensions.

(Mandatory warning for Lewdness)

I'd call her trash-tier, but that would mean that the internet would have proof that I prefer either a snake-lady that crushes people, a horse, a fish, or a feathery child (amongst other notable examples).

[zamnath]

Bit of a random suggestion, but I do recommend watching Monster Musume. Or at least Rachnera. Rach is spider girl, and may help you out at getting Dimensions.

(Mandatory warning for Lewdness)

I'd call her trash-tier, but that would mean that the internet would have proof that I prefer either a snake-lady that crushes people, a horse, a fish, or a feathery child (amongst other notable examples).

12 beast > Monster Musume.

Actually did use Rachnera as a reference when designing the spiders. She's a well rendered version of a drider, and a great reference, but follows a slightly different approach than I wanted to go. Basically, Okayado drew her more like a woman sitting on a spider than the traditional DnD top half human/bottom half spider centaur look. It's a cool look, and works particularly well with Monster Musume's ecchi aesthetic, but it felt too "human" compared to the monstery feel that I wanted. That said, I'm still not fully satisfied with the transition between the two sides in the Widows.  Most of the references I could find avoided 1/2 profiles apparently with the explicit idea of avoiding having to show how the centaurs come together. Thank you for the recommendation, though!

@Arty: I like those suggestions. ^.^ Will probably have to wait until the weekend to work on texture updates, but I'll see what I can do. Hadn't even thought about how low the spider part's rear torso hangs, but now it's bugging (eheh) me lol. At the moment, I think I'm still going to leave the arms mostly unchanged. I went back and forth a lot with how to render them, changing their positions and poses and degree of outlining, and this was the best neutral (read: rimworldy) pose I could find that was still mostly readable. I'll try thinning out the front view's blacked out outlines some, though, and see if that helps.

Part of me thinks the biggest issue might be the way the bellies look like they're an extension of the spider torso, from the front, rather than a separate piece. It's pretty clear, in my opinion, in the Widows' standard clothes and when they're naked, but the armor sets do seem to cause the separate bits on the model to bleed into each other due to how they're designed. Will have to think on that.

[Umbreon117]

  Most of the references I could find avoided 1/2 profiles apparently with the explicit idea of avoiding having to show how the centaurs come together. Thank you for the recommendation, though!

No prob. As for the problem shown above: Maybe this will help? Don't remember exactly what the waists of the centaur and dryad look like, but maybe it could give you ideas.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=31009.165

[zamnath]

  Most of the references I could find avoided 1/2 profiles apparently with the explicit idea of avoiding having to show how the centaurs come together. Thank you for the recommendation, though!

No prob. As for the problem shown above: Maybe this will help? Don't remember exactly what the waists of the centaur and dryad look like, but maybe it could give you ideas.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=31009.165

Oh yeah, I've seen these before! I'll give 'em a look.

[Umbreon117]

Right. Only just started out with this mod, but here are two things I instantly noticed.

1: The Milk mod for the Orassans causes the map creation screen to go black whenever this mod is loaded, regardless of what I do. (Will test further, I currently have around 50 mods active. Will give more information sometime tomorrow)

2: The shield bar for the "Dudou" doesn't fill completely, even though it says "10/10". Haven't tested if it fully protects (Will test tomorrow as well), but this is probably just a visual bug.

[zamnath]

Right. Only just started out with this mod, but here are two things I instantly noticed.

1: The Milk mod for the Orassans causes the map creation screen to go black whenever this mod is loaded, regardless of what I do. (Will test further, I currently have around 50 mods active. Will give more information sometime tomorrow)

2: The shield bar for the "Dudou" doesn't fill completely, even though it says "10/10". Haven't tested if it fully protects (Will test tomorrow as well), but this is probably just a visual bug.

For #1: That's not good. I'd definitely love some info on your mod list and the like, as that's not an issue I'm currently able to replicate.

For #2: that's an unfortunate necessity of the way I established the mod (as far as I've been able to determine). Essentially, to balance the ready access to early shield belt effects, I decreased the total shield amount. Black Widows gear will generally give one solid shielded hit, but no more. Since shields were designed to resist potentially multiple hits, the Black Widows gear's lower shield amounts can look a bit odd. If you're finding that damage is bleeding through, let me know. Otherwise, though it might be a bit underpowered as currently implemented and look a bit odd, it's currently operating as intended.