Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

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fritzgryphon

Quote from: gadjung on June 23, 2018, 10:43:35 AM
I think 'Slept in Cold' debuff is applied incorrectly.
Pawn having 'Min comf. temperature' of -25.8*C, sleeping in a room of 13*C gets debuff despite that he's still within comfy temp. zone.
and for clarification, it's not 'old' debuff from previous sleep of pawn.

I think the debuff intentionally ignores clothing to incentivize climate control. The range is 15C to 25C.

Serina

#391
Quote from: Polder on June 23, 2018, 10:02:41 AM
I tried the Naked Brutality start several times and infections are often a death sentence. There is very little that can be done to avoid death from infection. The barrier to managable infections is high: either skill 8 in growing and a lot of time, or lots of silver and a lucky trade.

The way I'm adjusting to this is to start only with a super-immune colonist. Decent combat skills are also required or they will die to the first pirate raid. Which then leads to a lot of rerolling colonists until a suitable candidate is found.

Super-immune trait is one of my favorites! Name is very fitting for the Naked Brutality scenario. Even the tiniest mistake or oversight could cost you the game but I find it very fun. Normally I sit at the colonist selection screen and spam click randomize for at least an hour or two whenever I have to start a new save since I'm pretty picky about traits and passions. The new trait, Tough, is pretty handy as well. My colonist with Tough was able to fend off a very hungry warg with a steel club without taking too much damage, just a couple of scratches and a bite if I remember correctly. When I first saw the attack notice, I thought he was a goner for sure but I've since considered renaming him Badass.

I don't know if I've been extremely lucky in this most recent run of mine but 63 days have passed and I haven't suffered an infection, yet. My best doctor at the time only had 3 in medical but I used steel beds and the rough granite flooring underneath me since I dug into a hill.

Madman666

Seeing as another update is up

- Still hope that raiders being capable of self-tending will be brought back. It felt very right. It felt like they had brains... Until next update lobotomized them again.
- Still hope food poisoning stops knocking people out. They don't eat pesticides to get incapacitated, even if bad food gives you stomach pains, diarrhea, gut worms and some other nasty stuff, it doesn't make you KO, while raiders burn your house. You shit yourself, grit your teeth and fight. I liked it when it was frequent but less severe.
- Also I'll still be nagging about item quality - masterwork and legendary shouldn't be quests only. Sure it does add more incentive to go and try some quests. But if in earlier version you could incredibly slowly but reliably make masterwork or legendary beds for your guys for example. In this version max you can hope for is excellent even lategame with a god-like builder. And with quests you never really can get what you really want, only what random gives after you fight 10 people armed to the teeth with your 3 hobos.

Overall - great update. Centipede armor nerf and scyther buff was badly required good stuff. Melee-shot thingy was removed - another great decision, since it all but disabled any use melee in the game had. I really like how melee was a high risk, high reward thing, with you disabling and putting at a disadvantage otherwise technologically superior enemies.

As for quality and self-tends - i guess its fine. I really hope those get fixed, but if not, theres always our generous modding community. Thanks for your hard work, Tynan. Your work is amazing as always.

Gfurst

#393
Here I come again this time with images.

Regarding recreation, I don't why people are complaining so much either, keeping in mind there are now different types of recreation, involving dexterity or intellectual, and perhaps social/drugs I don't know. But all you really  is a couple of things, between the horseshoe and recreation tables, add some beer and smokeleaf (depending on availability), plus some social recreation time together, and they're pretty much satisfied. I assigned just two recreation hours just before sleep and they usually even go to work after that time is done.


Parking spot for trading caravans, to pretty avoid second picture, needless to say, its quite weird the places they choose to hang around.


Bug spawning, I don't remember seeing it on your patch notes changing it, but I had two weird cases, first had bugs spreading almost cancerous like, second case was much more manageable, I dunno if it was changed or just different severity. First picture was after like a week, second picture was just a couple of days after spawn, pretty much first duplicate.
 

Caravans, are indeed pretty cool, I don't recall reading about it anywhere, but people will tend themselves in caravan (hopefully the more skilled doctor), and I don't know if needs for the caravan to be paused, but it often helps to have them rest a while and recuperating before going off again. This also makes capturing prisoners on the road more viable.
Forageability is also pretty neat, it serves as a nice way to complement a caravan nutrition, and not at all meant to replace it, so while on the road your Pemmican may last much more than what you thought.
Getting food poisoning while on caravan can be pretty damaging though, heavily slowing movement cost and possibly even losing the whole caravan. I hold my previous suggestion to have different severity cases of poisoning and not just always incapacitating one, also hint whether some food may have low quality or not.
The events that happen are also ok, they always seem scale correctly the size of the challenge, which I actually would like to see more randomness, for example right now you can always expect just minor threat to happen on quests, maybe mix it up more.
As an additional point, doing trade requests are really worth it, but it also feels that the rewards are somewhat too strong, maybe having different grades of quests also help variability, and not always just high rewards.


  • As already noted, pawns often will not haul when completing wild harvest work orders.
  • There is an odd situation where an fertilized egg can become "ruined", I think in these cases the fertilized egg should be treated as unfertilized, eg hauled and cooked.
  • Again on hauling stuff, when a recipe requires more than one type ingredient, it can result in pawns taking rather lengthy trips to fetch each ingredient, like cooking, one little piece meat, another meat, another vegetable. This applies to all workbenches it seems, possibly making it pretty inefficient.
  • Some work bills don't apply to the appropriate skill, so for example medicine making, which uses intelligence but its on crafting work order, it can lead weird cases where your researcher is doing stone cutting work, while you crafter is doing medicine work.
  • Likewise, I support that idea that some work can fit under general skill-less work, like feeding patients and prisoners, maybe more but it fails my memory.
  • I like that masterworks are rare, you're really not supposed to be getting those items left and right with average skilled people, its called masterwork/legendary for a reason.

edit: sorry for posting the full images, I don't get how to attach images otherwise

Serina

Quote from: Madman666 on June 23, 2018, 01:05:36 PM
- Still hope food poisoning stops knocking people out. They don't eat pesticides to get incapacitated, even if bad food gives you stomach pains, diarrhea, gut worms and some other nasty stuff, it doesn't make you KO, while raiders burn your house. You shit yourself, grit your teeth and fight. I liked it when it was frequent but less severe.

I disagree that some food poisoning doesn't knock you out. I recently just got over food poisoning myself and I can tell you that I was pretty much incapacitated for a day and a half. I had fever, chills, intense stomach pain, diarrhea and fatigue. It got to the point where all I could do was sleep. Whenever I had any strength, I was in the bathroom. After about 12 hours of sleeping, I tried to get up and play one of my survival games because I was quite bored of being in bed all day but I couldn't even sit in the chair so I went back to sleep. Up until then, I wasn't aware that food poisoning could literally incapacitate someone for some time as it did with me since I never got food poisoning before. I just heard people get diarrhea and stomach pains whenever they talked about it.

Imo, maybe add different severity to food poisoning. Sometimes it could just be throwing up/diarrhea, but the pawn can still move around a bit. Maybe another time it could be more severe with the pawn needing half a day's worth of bed rest, etc. B18 food poisoning was very negligible and forgotten. However, always being incapacitated due to food poisoning in 1.0 isn't very balanced either. Anyway, I don't know if they decreased chances of food poisoning recently but I haven't had a single colonist come down with food poisoning since arrival (63 days). My cook only had lvl 4 in the skills but has two flames.

gwtheyrn

Quote from: Tynan on June 23, 2018, 08:14:24 AM
Quote from: Venatos on June 23, 2018, 08:04:36 AM
i thought this was fixed for 1.0?
joy, hunger and rest apparently still have a higher prioritys then saving someone from bleeding out and/or getting your own bleeding wound tended to.
none of those things are even remotely as important as saving a life or preventing an infection!

this is a core issue that has no business in a 1.0 release.
if you get a bleeding scratch from a squirel, do you realy go ahead and leave a trail of blood trough your neighborhood to watch a sunset or do you desinfect it and bandage it up?

We haven't actually been able to find a case that reproduces this. By design doctors will tend instead of eating *if the person would die soon*. They won't forego their own basic needs just because someone is sick with a non-fatal illness. If you've got a broken case in a savegame I hope you'll post it in the Bugs forum.

I actually have run into this just yesterday. A pawn was bleeding all over the place and decided it was a better idea to go play horseshoes with his ex.

Madman666

#396
Quote from: Serina on June 23, 2018, 01:40:32 PM
I disagree that some food poisoning doesn't knock you out.

Holy crap, what did you eat exactly? Those symptoms are more fit for it to be some kind of chemical poisoning... And no, food poisoning incapacitation really needs to go. Even with lowered chance it happens way too often. And having a person down during a raid frequently is a difference between life and death. Should you not have a cook with over 10 skill, you're in for suffering early game. That really shouldn't be so brutal. Like at all.

Quote from: Gfurst on June 23, 2018, 01:26:06 PM
I like that masterworks are rare, you're really not supposed to be getting those items left and right with average skilled people, its called masterwork/legendary for a reason.

I did say about godlike builders, didn't I? Those items should be rare, but available through crafting if you manage to train and maintain level 20 (godlike) crafter the way it was in B18. Quests shouldn't be the only way to get those. Inspiration mechanics are quite useless for it, so i don't count those. If i am correct in B18 it was 2-3% to get a legendary with a skill lvl 20 crafter. Thats rare enough. I really don't want Rimworld turning into Diablo where the chance of dropping an epic is 0.00002% or quest reward only.

TheMeInTeam

Food poisoning is variable IRL, but the in-game version is very rare.


Infection is annoying but perfect play can avoid it with naked brutality.  What you can't avoid with normal play is instant game over to early disease or food poisoning RNG (even cooking only in a clean room you need a high cooking skill or you lose sometimes).


Only viable opening for NB is to press ancient dangers instantly and flee the map if you can't handle what's inside --> abandon and repeat.

gadjung

Quote from: fritzgryphon on June 23, 2018, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: gadjung on June 23, 2018, 10:43:35 AM
I think 'Slept in Cold' debuff is applied incorrectly.
Pawn having 'Min comf. temperature' of -25.8*C, sleeping in a room of 13*C gets debuff despite that he's still within comfy temp. zone.
and for clarification, it's not 'old' debuff from previous sleep of pawn.

I think the debuff intentionally ignores clothing to incentivize climate control. The range is 15C to 25C.

As I looked in code :
Quote
private static void ApplyBedThoughts(Pawn actor)
    (...)
    if ((double) actor.AmbientTemperature < (double) actor.def.GetStatValueAbstract(StatDefOf.ComfyTemperatureMin, (ThingDef) null))
    (...)
where
Quote
public class ThoughtWorker_Cold : ThoughtWorker
  {
    protected override ThoughtState CurrentStateInternal(Pawn p)
    {
      float num = p.GetStatValue(StatDefOf.ComfyTemperatureMin, true) - p.AmbientTemperature;
      if ((double) num <= 0.0)
        return ThoughtState.Inactive;
      if ((double) num < 10.0)
        return ThoughtState.ActiveAtStage(0);
      if ((double) num < 20.0)
        return ThoughtState.ActiveAtStage(1);
      if ((double) num < 30.0)
        return ThoughtState.ActiveAtStage(2);
      return ThoughtState.ActiveAtStage(3);
    }
  }
So given this snippets, I would assume, that pawns ComfyTemperatureMin is taken into account, without ignoring clothes.
And i would say if that would not be true (apparel is ignored) then it would be bug, since sleeping in warm clothes (that keeps You warm during day) should be ok and not giving debuff.

Other solution might be by boosting pawn comfy temp when sleeping (+5 so from basic 16 it would go to 21 when sleeping/resting in bed)

Serina

My bf and I ate exactly the same food that day, excluding the crab onigiri I ordered outside. That was really the only thing I ate that he didn't and then later in the afternoon I started diarrhea. Didn't think anything of it until later that evening when I got fever, chills and couldn't get out of bed the next day. At first I thought I had the flu, but since my bf never got sick, we decided to research all my symptoms and came up with food poisoning. Diarrhea didn't even bother me that much, to be honest. Fatigue and muscle aches were the worst part of the whole experience.

I have yet to break any bones, so knock on wood.  ::)

Like I said earlier, not a single food poisoning case for my colonists 63 days into naked brutality, phoebe rough. My pawn only had 4 in cooking skill and ate a bunch of berries in the beginning. Either I was extremely lucky (I need to start buying lottery tickets) or the chances of getting food poisoning has been toned down significantly. After posting this, my colonists will probably contract diseases and come down with food poisoning all at the same time now.  :P

Madman666

I strongly suggest you trying roulette. You'll get rich!

Yoshida Keiji

I don't remember if it was different in B18, but in VU1.0 Extreme difficulty, selling slaves only earns you $100 silver. It feels like you cannot become a "Slaver tribe", can you up the prices so that we can play another game strategy variant? It's like you took away another gameplay style.




Also, Predators became stupider, now you can just wait until they hunt and once their prey is dead, a player can attack it as it won't turn revenge mode but flee instead, only that after a few tiles away, it will return to feed, giving the player more chances to hit a sitting duck until it finally perishes...



I will never understand "players" that "complain" about Predators...aahahahahahaaa
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on June 23, 2018, 02:16:31 PM
...

East

Quote from: Bowman on June 23, 2018, 09:22:23 AM
-*Edited in: food poisoning has a problem: I know it's coming but the colonist is not considered sick. I can't just send them to a hospital bed or to their own bed even. Would be great if I could do that once they have the initial effect. What I do now is I draft them and have them waiting next to their own bed - in parts because they also drop their weapons and if I don't manually track a poisoned colonist their weapon ends up in the river and loses 10% before I can get someone to pick it up... Frustrating.


I agree. It should be possible to send food poisoning to the hospital bed.

Madman666

It also should be possible to treat it with meds, to cancel out possible KO. In that case i won't have anything against it incapacitating pawns. If you have the meds to treat it - they shouldn't drop.

TheMeInTeam

QuoteAlso, Predators became stupider, now you can just wait until they hunt and once their prey is dead, a player can attack it as it won't turn revenge mode but flee instead, only that after a few tiles away, it will return to feed, giving the player more chances to hit a sitting duck until it finally perishes...

I thought it was surprising that they lowered revenge proc on them too.  The fundamental issue with them (constant manual pixel hunt) didn't change.  Note that earlier in this thread, you mentioned an issue with pawns getting caught at the edge of the map...complaining about that and saying predators hunting colonists is okay is incoherent - it's the same issue wearing different clothing. 

Predators targeting colonists for hunting with 0 notification remains an inconsistent implementation in Rimworld in 1.0 and that has yet to be refuted in any capacity by anybody.