Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

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ku

It would be good to see fertility, when building a growing zone.

Golden

On the whole I like the changes and additions to RimWorld.

I like the simplification of the crafting levels, the removal of Shoddy and Superior, although probably I'll miss Superior.
I love having the Wildlife Tab in vanilla.
I love the decrease in energy cost for basic lamps.
I love the smoothed walls (and floors from before, of course), but I think the build time for them has increased way too much.  They also look great.
I love the new butcher spot.
I love the ability to refuel the fires and torches.
I like the look of the blueprints.
I like the tab to see exactly what a trader will buy - even if it is so limited.  :)
I like the renaming of Joy to Recreation.
While not being able to build a roof if there's a tree in the area was confusing at first with the popup, I like the idea and execution.
I love the new icon on the pawns showing their inspiration.


I HATE the excess time taken away from work so very frequently for recreation/wandering/stargazing/cloudwatching.  It now takes FOREVER to do anything at all.  Yes, I made a horseshoe post right away, but it didn't help enough.  I can't express enough how much this kills my enjoyment and how much I don't want to play again when I know I'm facing the same thing.
I don't like the excess difficulty and time it now takes to train pets.  The extra step added is fine, but the other time extensions seem punitive.
I don't like the difficulty in trading with visitors, especially in the beginning.  They aren't very often and those limits hurt.  I can see it working just fine later in the game.
I don't like how the gifting system works.  Maybe I don't understand it, which is very likely, but I haven't yet been able to give a gift.  Perhaps more explanation or tips, please.
I don't like that I have to already have a number of advanced components to be able to make the benches to fabricate them. While I did see a trader with a couple, it was in early game and I couldn't afford them then.
I don't like the slowness of plants growing in the wild.  The grass cover seemed exceptionally sparse in the Temperate Forest I was playing in most recently - also the availability of the wild berries was very low.  :(

There's more, of course, but those are the things that stick out right now.

Thank you for 1.0, Ludeon Studios!


ZE

i guess in addition what i posted before regarding cooling and water, swimming traits that give movement speed boosts in water would be interesting..  it would be hilarious to see a raider skip a river you was using as a chokepoint to melee your people from behind

Ardshael

Found a good one... probably should be a bug.

This guy's waist is "cut off". Not only is he miraculously still alive, he apparently still has his legs and can move. LOL



[attachment deleted due to age]

jamaicancastle

Quote from: Ardshael on June 24, 2018, 02:47:26 AM
Found a good one... probably should be a bug.

This guy's waist is "cut off". Not only is he miraculously still alive, he apparently still has his legs and can move. LOL


The waist isn't normally a hittable part of the body; it's meant to just be an attachment point for belts and things. (Hence why the legs aren't connected to it.) It's very odd that it was able to come up as an attack target at all; I thought they had 0% coverage?

TheMeInTeam

Quote from: Madman666 on June 23, 2018, 07:58:56 PM
Brilliant idea, sir. You get up to 25-30 armored raiders with automatic weaponry like assault rifles, heavy SMGs and even a triple launcher, but all you need to do is really just confront them with your brave 14 people, 4 of which are pacifists, 2 have pieces of wood for legs, one got his eye scratched out by a mad bunny. You have mostly survival rifles, shotguns, short range machine pistols and the like, but don't let it worry you! Just man up, drop the dependency on walls and those pathetic turrets and go out with a blaze. Then get mutilated, raped and kidnapped - no big deal, you can always just start over.

I usually peek-shot them from structures outside my perimeter wall, which interrupts their AI script.  Though that late in the game you can throw in an insanity lance or shock lance to force a switch and stall too.

I've been running NB scenarios except swapped to strating in tribe tech on extreme.  It was painful going at first, because if you get food poisoned (can't 100% control this) or contract early disease you're dead.  I was able to mitigate the latter via raiding ancient dangers and abandoning base to stack up 50 luciferium and some power armor before finally settling.  Had to survive a few 3 vs 10 raids and had a drop pod raid in year 1 that burned my kitchen and dining/work/rec room, but since the map has lots of trees this isn't game over and I've re-walled and rebuilt most of that stuff, starting to stabilize.

Even Cas can screw you early though, and the RNG isn't a matter of skill, no amount of "thinking" gets you past RNG food poisoning, since there's no reliable option for non-food poisoned outcomes unless you reroll for a great cook.

Roolo

Quote from: Tynan on June 24, 2018, 12:17:38 AM
Quote from: Nightinggale on June 23, 2018, 11:19:59 AM
Speaking of code modding, I have a question. Verse.ModContentPack.LoadDefs() has [DebuggerHidden] set. It seems to interfere with Harmony Transpiler, making it impossible to mod the method, only do stuff before/after or replace it entirely. While it turned out that this specific case doesn't prevent me from doing what I want to do, it does leave the question why it's even used? Wouldn't it make sense to search and remove all [DebuggerHidden] from the entire sourcecode to ensure the code to be as modder friendly as possible? None of us can predict which method will need to be modded a few months from now because the modder haven't gotten the idea yet. Because of this, it would make sense to unlock all of them.

Wherever [DebuggerHidden] is coming from, it's not defined in our source code. Kind of a mystery... and thoughts from anyone appreciated.

This happens for any iterator method (methods returning IEnumerable). I'm not sure why, but I can imagine the annotation is there to make clear that the method displayed has a hidden object inside it.

@Nightinggale The problem of not being able to patch the method is in fact not caused by the [DebuggerHidden] annotation. You're not able to patch it with a transpiler because under the hood the method doesn't do anything but returning a c__Iterator object. Inside this c__Iterator object is a method called "MoveNext", which contains the logic you see in the method. So if you want to patch anything inside the iterator method, you shouldn't patch the method directly, but you should patch the MoveNext method inside the hidden object that your method returns.

Patching this won't work with normal harmony patches since there's no way to target this hidden object that way, but there's a way to make it work by specifying TargetMethod(). It may sound complicated, but here's an example:


  //example transpiler patch of Pawn.GetGizmos, which is an iterator method which isn't accessible the regular way
  [HarmonyPatch]
  public static class Pawn_GetGizmos_Transpiler {
        static MethodBase TargetMethod()//The target method is found using the custom logic defined here
        {
            var predicateClass = typeof(Pawn).GetNestedTypes(AccessTools.all)
                .FirstOrDefault(t => t.FullName.Contains("c__Iterator2"));//c__Iterator2 is the hidden object's name, the number at the end of the name may vary. View the IL code to find out the name
            return predicateClass.GetMethods(AccessTools.all).FirstOrDefault(m => m.Name.Contains("MoveNext")); //Look for the method MoveNext inside the hidden iterator object
        }
        static IEnumerable<CodeInstruction> Transpiler(IEnumerable<CodeInstruction> instructions)
        {
         //transpiler code here
        }
}


When viewing the IL code in your decompiler, you can find that your original method contains only code to call the hidden iterator object, and you can find the hidden iterator object, and see that it contains the code of your original method.

I hope this is a bit clear, send me a PM if you still have questions.


PatrykSzczescie

Quote from: Madman666 on June 23, 2018, 07:58:56 PM
Brilliant idea, sir. You get up to 25-30 armored raiders with automatic weaponry like assault rifles, heavy SMGs and even a triple launcher, but all you need to do is really just confront them with your brave 14 people, 4 of which are pacifists, 2 have pieces of wood for legs, one got his eye scratched out by a mad bunny. You have mostly survival rifles, shotguns, short range machine pistols and the like, but don't let it worry you! Just man up, drop the dependency on walls and those pathetic turrets and go out with a blaze. Then get mutilated, raped and kidnapped - no big deal, you can always just start over.

In B18, I used to get raids 3 times greater in amount of people with advanced weaponry and armory, including multiple doomsday launchers. It was Cassandra rough difficulty and results of the raid made me switch the difficulty to intense. I had a colony of 6 decent people. Any useless ones were banished.

If you keep colonists with peg legs, scratched eye and IoV, it might be a good idea to do something with them. And if you let them attack your colony avoiding turrets, it's something wrong there as turrets are replacable.

East

This time the animal AI is getting worse.
(B18) When the owner of the animal was determined and the owner was called, the animal immediately moved to that area.
(1.0) Now the animal does not respond even if the owner is called.
Did not you accidentally restore the old version while making changes?

PatrykSzczescie

Tynan has mentioned that animal reaction to the owner drafting has been improved, although I didn't know what it meant as this feature in B18 was just fine and I couldn't imagine better.

Julia

I'm looking at my colonists and think there are just too many negative traits. Hence the +1 for green thumb, instead of more sickly, excess eaters and such. Actually, why not have more positive than negative traits? (fun!)

btw, your previous graphics guy was better, some of the new icons and items look much worse than before ;-)

Example is medicine, silver, bed, wind turbine, mining icon, the new ones miss the feel of the original ones. I'm surprised you want to tweak something which was perfect.

"The raspberry bush looks pretty bad. It looks like a tomato bush. Liked it better before."

Yeah x1000000, looks like something I would do in Paint with my 0 artist skill level. It is clearly more visible, but the old one was perfect fit for the game.

Hard to tell whether the wildlife tab is good idea, you had to look yourself for animals - wildlife tab makes it easy, but misses the fun and effort of searching yourself, game becomes more automatic, click-done. So no thinking involved, no effort involved to look around from time to time. Idk, might be 'too much'. Making it so automatic that the game misses the fun and slight effort aspect of doing it. It's a good idea on paper, but makes the game too automatic and devoid of this slight effort that was previously needed.

SpoonBender

Quote from: Tynan on June 24, 2018, 12:32:34 AM
For the main gameplay modes I think the overall challenge is lowered, but critically, the cheese tactics you were depending on before have been countered. Especially at Extreme.

So the result is, normal tactics work better, and cheese tactics don't work as well. Which means if you were using cheese, it'll seem harder, and if you were using normal tactics, it'll seem easier. Since you were using cheese, it seems a lot harder.

Honestly the way you describe it is how I want Extreme to be. It's supposed to be really fucking hard. Finishing on that level should be a serious achievement not possible without some dedicated play and a dose of luck.
All those hours of playing, only to be called a cheeser by the dev.  :D

But you are correct. Since caravaning was introduced my goal has always been to set up an easily defendable colony, so I could focus on raiding the pirates. I aimed to wipe all pirates camps of the map and achieve world  peace. I never intend to actually leave the Rimworld, I want to rule it.

There was no real challenge in defending the main base anymore and once you got advanced enough the pirate camps weren't that hard either. So my interest dropped and I didn't play much last year. Now I'm back at it, cursing at the game like a newby and rethinking my strategies. So you did a very good job!

Ser Kitteh

On more Questing:

1. Idk how incapitated refugees are balanced now, but in both missions, I sent a single melee/medic pawn to save a refugee, and the only thing that ambushed me was a single scyther. Is the difficulty of quests now tied to how equipped your colonists are?

2. The new gifting mechanic is great, though it needs some balancing. It's very easy to just drop pod 40 shitty t-shirts and get on their good side.

3a. One thing that I still have not seen implemented is the use of drop pods to fulfill caravan requests. One outlander faction wanted 24 t-shirts and was willing to part with 14 advanced components to get em'. I SHOULD be able to just drop pod the whole thing, but each time I needed to send my best soldier/medic to complete the transaction. The reason of course being you need a pawn to "fulfill trade request". It would be nice, at least for outlander unions and not tribals, for me to just drop pod the stuff and they can drop pod the goodies.

It usually starts and ends with me loading the gear, my pawn, a muffalo, shoot them to the faction, and waits for three days to get him.

3b. Also related, drop pod UI is still not great. Can't see what's inside the pod, and can't easily add stuff to it. Needs more lovin'.

4. "Offer help" to the incapitated refugee was very much needed. I still see YouTubers playing on B18's sending a squad to help and said refugee walks off. It would also be nice, IMO, to be able "shackle/capture" enemies, so players don't spend time building a shack and shoving everyone in it.

5. Also would be nice if pawns can take out meds from their inventory or their animal's inventory and patch people right then and there. When you arrive by caravan, everything is on your pack animal/inventory. If you drop pod, everything drops on the floor (makes sense). Basically, Smart Medicine should be vanilla, but I understand if this is too much of a time sink to do.

Madman666

#463
Quote from: PatrykSzczescie on June 24, 2018, 04:10:59 AM
In B18, I used to get raids 3 times greater in amount of people with advanced weaponry and armory, including multiple doomsday launchers. It was Cassandra rough difficulty and results of the raid made me switch the difficulty to intense. I had a colony of 6 decent people. Any useless ones were banished.

If you keep colonists with peg legs, scratched eye and IoV, it might be a good idea to do something with them. And if you let them attack your colony avoiding turrets, it's something wrong there as turrets are replacable.

Couple fair points, but you can't always be choosy with people you get. Raid difficulty goes up regardles of you getting new pawns or not. Your luck with potential recruits can be extremely poor, as the game likes it very much to leave you severely crippled parodies to people instead of proper potential colonists. So ignoring\banishing any person that has some kind of disability, that can affect your defensive power can result in a loss just due to insufficient workforce, or whats even worse - a lack of key skills (like cooking now. its better to have a pacifist, but a  decent cook now, then have no pawn at all).

As for second point - also true, you can fast replace turrets, to get some more shots going their way, but in my experience, if the places where you install your turrets are lacking sandbags - they'll get blown up, potentially damaging other stuff and people. Plus on small and medium maps with the speed "miner" sappers annihilate your walls - you don't even have that much time to replace turrets.

So defending against sappers usually results in some cheap cheesy tactic, that feels even worse than boring killboxes - either through use of consumables (aforementioned insanity\shock lance, that disables the sapper forcing them to go into killbox or just launchers, that can pulverize half the raid in one lucky shot), or through abuse of their AI popping in and out for quick shots at the sapper, until he dies. Honestly it could use some improvement, like greatly extending the time it takes them to mine\explode through walls, so you have more time to think up some countermeasures, without having to have 5-tile wide outer walls.

DariusWolfe

Some thoughts jogged loose by reading other feedback:
- I really don't much mind food poisoning as is. It's annoying sure, but it's also pretty temporary, and seems to come on gradually enough; Usually my pawns are only down and out for half a day at most; Mind you, I'm not playing Rich Explorer or Naked Brutality, so the severity of half a day is probably worse on those, but I had a pawn downed for food poisoning on a solo caravan, and it was annoying but survivable.
- Masterwork crafts are definitely not impossible; I made a masterwork duster, on purpose only the other day, by taking advantage of an inspiration. Inspirations seem to come often enough that I can make use of them if I'm prepared to. The only issue I have with inspirations is when I get inspirations that are irrelevant, like shooting on a guy I didn't even give a gun. I think they should maybe be a bit more easy to come by, but then I don't have a close-to-20 level crafter, so I'm good with it as is.
- Graphics-wise, I overall like the changes. Some of the non-updated stuff looks positively drab in comparison. The research bench is a good example; You can barely see the stuff on the table. A gritty survival game doesn't have to be all shades of beige... Let's leave that color palette to Bethesda, shall we? (I kid!)

Something I'd really like to see is an update to the UI. grey boxes is functional, but it feels drab. I don't think we need something overly ornate and 'flavorful', just something a bit nicer than gray boxes. The layout of stuff on the screen could use a little work as well, with only one truly egregious candidate: The info box in the lower left corner. I constantly want to see that box, but it's always covered up by the rest of the UI. Change the placement of that, and I could more than live with the rest.