Unstable build feedback thread

[Lanilor]

For some reason, there is a large misperception in the community that things like dstrand and heavy fur dusters actually matter. They don't, at least not against the one shot threats. And they provide marginal protection against everything else.

I assume they either don't care to know how the armor system math, didn't care to see how effective HP scales with armor values, don't know how arpen works, or some combination of the above.

It is really annoying how often you say that, even more because it is wrong and you think you know it better. At least this time you included a condition with oneshot threats, but even there dusters are still useful and secondly no one ever said it should only be about these attacks.

An excellent panthera fur duster has over 36% sharp armor and is nothing special at all. While it does nothing against charge lances, even for weapons like an LMG it gives an additional 10% chance to block the damage completely and another 10% for mitigated half blunt damage.
Legendary bearskil duster: 60%, devilstand: 66%, ... my masterwork thrumbofur ones have over 90%. All these also protect against change lances and the better ones to a quite nice percentage.
And even normal dusters like a good plainleather duster gives 28% sharp armor, which gives additional protection to most or all of the weapons raiders have early- and midgame. Like 7% to block a pump shotgun shot or 0.5% to block a bolt-action rifle shot (Yes, this is also not useless). Really good ones easily have above 60% sharp armor and can go up to 108%. No idea how you think this is a "marginal protection". Like a 47% additional chance to block a minigun shot sure is not marginal.
Dusters of cause have a lower armor value than a flak vest. But you wear both and get extra resistance that way. And they also protect a way larger part of the body.

[mlzovozlm]

started a run in .1978, now it's 7 years in & i've got ~20 healer serums from item stashes, 4 techprofs, 1 power armor, a few masterwork weapons, but never saw a single resurrect & power claw, the only archotech parts i got were 2 legs, 1 arm

not like i need a resurrect serum though, 7 years in, current pop count 32, no colonist died the whole game

p.s: Randy - Rough - Mountain - Temperate Forest - Perm. Summer
the revert of trade ship makes dumping materials impossible, now my base's floating in leather, fur, wool, flak vests, flak pants, simple helmets, dusters, & all kind of apparels+weapons :| 6 full trade beacon stockpiles waiting to be freed up

[Toast]

It looks like you cannot currently reinstall chairs in front of a workbench that a pawn is already sitting at. Not the biggest problem in the world but I'm pretty sure you used to be able to do this.

It seems that pawns, both human and animal, who are not members of your colony no longer get descriptions of their current activity (e.g. "attacking Joe Blow," "consuming all your goddamn healroot"). I don't know if this is intended or not, but I hate it. I want to know whether a running animal is trying to eat something of mine so I can shut the door, or whether a raider is about to path into a trap due to his target so I can focus fire on someone else.

Personally i disagree. This is a very good change, we are not supposed to know the ennemy's strategy...

I agree with alligator76. You should not be able to perfectly know what the enemy is doing.
You should have to make a tactical decision based on what you think they are doing.

Rimworld is in almost all aspects a "perfect information" game, meaning you can see all enemies wherever they spawn on the map even if your pawns are all sleeping, blind, and deaf, there is no "stealth," you are told whether raiders are "clever" or not, etc. (The only exception I can think of is Ancient Dangers.) This would be a departure from that longstanding model. It also affects pawns who are not enemies (aforementioned hungry animals, traders, passersby) meaning it limits your ability to react to actions that are not combat-related at all.

[Copperwire]

Clance renders normal flak pants completely useless since it has higher arpen than the 40% pants give you.

Arpen applies fully against each layer.

For some reason, there is a large misperception in the community that things like dstrand and heavy fur dusters actually matter. They don't, at least not against the one shot threats. And they provide marginal protection against everything else.

I assume they either don't care to know how the armor system math, didn't care to see how effective HP scales with armor values, don't know how arpen works, or some combination of the above.

For reference, going from 75->100 eff armor provides an 7.5x higher EHP increase than going from 0->25.

Since mitigation is all or nothing (unlike b18) low armor values don't even have the consolation of altering one shot breakpoints for destroying body parts.

If your primary concern is "Story Lances", BA/Sniper hits to the brain, and other such threats, shield belts and significant cover are much better answers then any armor in the game.

Besides Thrumbo Fur, Flak Vests, and Marine Armor, current version, armor is a joke for endgame, that is true.  Outside of endgame, it isn't useless:

EX: a Heavy Fur Duster, EX (90%) at 48.6% sharp (450s)

A Labrador Retriever has 17% melee AP.  Squirrels have 6.5% melee AP.   If you get bit/scratched 3 times, ~once it should help a bit against smaller animals.  Given how that tends to go, that means your going to heal a bit faster, more often then not, which isn't useless, but it is unlikely to save a Pawn.

A Pasteel Longsword has 40% melee AP.  That means your duster matters about 1 in 12 hits, and most hits will take a limb off.  A Charge Lance has 45% AP ... which means 1 in 33 hits ... useless.


My conclusion with "medium" armor is you might as well use it early game, but there is a point you should swap it all for cloth and sell it because it becomes wealth bloat. 

450s = 56.8 sections of granite wall...

[bbqftw]

For some reason, there is a large misperception in the community that things like dstrand and heavy fur dusters actually matter. They don't, at least not against the one shot threats. And they provide marginal protection against everything else.

I assume they either don't care to know how the armor system math, didn't care to see how effective HP scales with armor values, don't know how arpen works, or some combination of the above.

It is really annoying how often you say that, even more because it is wrong and you think you know it better. At least this time you included a condition with oneshot threats, but even there dusters are still useful and secondly no one ever said it should only be about these attacks.

An excellent panthera fur duster has over 36% sharp armor and is nothing special at all. While it does nothing against charge lances, even for weapons like an LMG it gives an additional 10% chance to block the damage completely and another 10% for mitigated half blunt damage.
Legendary bearskil duster: 60%, devilstand: 66%, ... my masterwork thrumbofur ones have over 90%. All these also protect against change lances and the better ones to a quite nice percentage.
And even normal dusters like a good plainleather duster gives 28% sharp armor, which gives additional protection to most or all of the weapons raiders have early- and midgame. Like 7% to block a pump shotgun shot or 0.5% to block a bolt-action rifle shot (Yes, this is also not useless). Really good ones easily have above 60% sharp armor and can go up to 108%. No idea how you think this is a "marginal protection". Like a 47% additional chance to block a minigun shot sure is not marginal.
Dusters of cause have a lower armor value than a flak vest. But you wear both and get extra resistance that way. And they also protect a way larger part of the body.

this is the problem with most in this community, they do not understand opportunity cost.

Of course a legendary X is better than nothing, but you are sacrificing what to do this? Inspirations are not unlimited. Your resources are not unlimited. Every choice you make comes at cost to something else.

You are also mentioning excellents as your baseline. That is pretty telling in itself. If I used excellent flak vests EHP multiplier then the numbers look even more comical.

I also notice you have no argument that regarding the armor effectiveness heavily supralinear scaling (it scales harder than in b18). It is a shame. But many are like this.

I make thrumbofur dusters. Of course
I would use a better over worse material. Excellent 71% sharps protection isn't nothing. But I am not under the delusion that this is significantly impacting my game outcomes. And if I was spamming dusters trying to get high qualities, when I don't have consistently high quality flak vests, than I am making an egregious mistake with my pawns time.

[zizard]

You are also mentioning excellents as your baseline. That is pretty telling in itself. If I used excellent flak vests EHP multiplier then the numbers look even more comical.

Actually this is very comical and ironic! As you go higher in armour, each point of armour is worth more. But higher armour also means more bonus points for quality! So quality is DOUBLE MORE BETTER for bigger points! Should have compared with normal!!! Don't waste your inspiration on bearskin duster LOL

[bbqftw]

Maybe there is alternate universe out there of unlucky tailors that just happen to botch every flak vest they touch. In such a case insane dusters to 100 sharps is fair.

In any case, I learned that I don't live up to my own standards in not spamming flak vests.

On the other hand in my last 4 years on merciless I've had a lancer shoot at me precisely once, so maybe my efforts were better invested in crematoria and golden sculptures.

[Copperwire]

Thrombo Fur Duster at 1450s = about 200 wall sections.  That's a base.

[EvadableMoxie]

Storyteller: Cassandra Classic
Difficulty: Rough
Biome/hilliness: Started in Temperate Forest, but I didn't stay long
Commitment mode: Yes
Current colony age: 104 days
Hours played in the last 2 days: 15 or so?
No Mods

Just had my naked brutality pawn escape the planet on day 104.  I began by crafting a short bow and killing enough alpacas to make a shirt and pants, then started popping ancient dangers.  The first one I opened had 3 centipedes, so I had to quickly abandon my starting map.  I then got about 3 maps in a row with no dangers before I came on a good one.  It also had enough alpacas for me to finish a duster and cowboy hat, and so I was set for summer.  I survived mostly by hunting 0% chance to fight back animals while I trapped up the ancient danger.

After popping it open, a lancer's shot missed me and hit the cryopod, triggering it.  This woke up the inhabitants who battled the mechs.  The mechs won, but narrowly, with 1 lancer standing.  One of the ancient solders dropped a machine pistol near the exit and I used it to down the lancer with hit and runs breaking LoS because it refused to be kited outside into traps. The lancer scored a headshot on me which damaged an eye down to 7/10.  I was still at something like 96% vision so it wasn't a big deal but it did mean a permanent -5 pain mood debuff.

The danger had a Legendary suit of Power Armor which I took, along with a normal quality assault rifle off one of the soldiers.  I also got some loot to sell with Luciferium and assorted weapons.  I went to the nearest neutral outlander base and bought an excellent power armor helmet and 40 cloth for a bedroll.

At this point I paused to research Pemmican which took awhile as my starting pawn had 0 research.  In retrospect, this was unnecessary as the ship was at the north pole anyway, so food spoilage wasn't going to be a concern.  Once done, I used berries plus hunting to make as much pemmican as I could carry and heading to the ship.   I was low on food so I tried to stop to hunt some but it was rough with mostly only snowhares.  It wasn't really efficient so I pushed on and got to the ship.

The ship was mostly surrounded on 3 sides by rock, which was nice.  I dissambled the extra cryopods as well as one of the engines both for steel and components but mostly to reduce the value.  Even with legendary power armor I was still at extremely low expectations while on the road since I had basically nothing else but a normal bedroll and food.  On the ship mod I was at Low expectations and I was concerned I was going to get sappers and mech drops.  I caravaned out and abandoned all the advanced components but I was still at about 45k wealth.  Knowing I couldn't get below 20k anyway and concerned about my food supply I just started it up.

Raids were usually 1 mech, 2 raiders, or 3 melee raiders which wasn't a problem to handle.  I never got sappers or pod drops, always normal raids.  The biggest issue came when I got an escape pod event that had my pawn's brother.  There were 6 enemies on the map from a double raid within an hour of eachother and there was just no way to kill them and get to him before hypotherma killed him.  This handed me a very nice -14 mood buff for the rest of the adventure.  Thankfully, I had smoothed out the walls and floors and made a room that was considered somewhat impressive.  That let me stack Somewhat impressive bedroom, dining room, and rec room for +12 and canceled it out. The reactor of the ship was outputting 1000w so I used that for heaters to avoid the slept in the cold debuff.

I was concerned I'd have to go cannibal to survive long enough as I didn't have the food to last 15 days.  I was saved when a Thumbo came onto the map.  I triggered him into Manhunter and let him and the next group of pirates take care of themselves.  Even only using a butchering spot, he gave 200+ meat.  I made a stove from the ship parts and powered it off the ship reactor to cook and I was set.

To keep from being raided while low on rest, I set my pawn's schedule to all rest.  They would first rest whenever below 75% rest, otherwise they would do recreation when below about 90%, and finally do work. I didn't realize pawns set to rest or recreation would do other things, but apparently they do if the primary task is already done.

All in all, a pretty interesting experience. I think I'm going to try it again on Extreme and see how it plays out.

Not posting graphs because I kept moving to different maps and abandoning so all I have is the space ship map graph which probably isn't all that useful.

[bbqftw]

Props on making NB AD opening work post nerf! That is really impressive.

The mood pressure on merciless is a lot more brutal against AD opening since there is a lot of sleeping on ground and lack of recreationing. And this was back when the chance of approachable AD was higher.

Lot of major breaks when I tried it, though I didn't commit fully to nomadic and was relying on rescue rolls.

[Teleblaster18]

Regarding the first screenshot, moods don't change when pawns are asleep. The white arrow indicates where the mood will slowly rise/fall to when the pawn is awake.

The night owl trait only gives a mood boost when the pawn is awake at night, not when sleeping during the day. The mood boost would be useless when a pawn is sleeping anyway.

My concern is this:  the pawn in question wasn't close to breaking before they went to bed.  I knew from experience that there's no mood buff for being asleep during the daytime.  This was a screen capture taken at the moment that the "Extreme Break Risk" message came up...it wasn't present before, and seemingly materialized from out of nowhere.

When I checked all of the mood buff and debuffs and did the simple math, I was coming out with a net mood buff of +6, with all other meters (except for beauty) within normal range.  If this colonist went to bed without a break risk, and the meters are accurate, this colonists shouldn't be anywhere near a Break Risk.

I've been trying to keep a particular eye on Mental Break patterns over the last few days, and this one seemed off to me, which is why I posted it for examination.  It's one that I still can't figure out.

[Greep]

Was he injured?  I think "resting" pawns count mood while in a bed while sleeping pawns do not.

[MajorFordson]

Yo Tynan, please add the possibility of dogs "cleaning" vomit spontaneously

Also the "crop blight" event still sucks. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the occasional "player has to go look for a thing" in builder games, the Anno games had you having to zoom in on your people to spot spies etc occasionally and it was a great way to get the player a little more involved with the otherwise-decorative greebles of the game. But in Rimworld it just turns into "click with mouse then press the Cut hotkey 30 times" which isn't fun or particularly engaging the nineteenth time you have to do it. Colonists should merely automatically tend to the crops.

[Dashthechinchilla]

One issue I have to the change with the HUNT work calculation is Brawlers. Both of my brawlers are terrible shots but passionate about animals. So on the Work tab, it shows they have a passion for hunting even though they would be unhappy if I had them do it.

[erdrik]

Also the "crop blight" event still sucks. .... But in Rimworld it just turns into "click with mouse then press the Cut hotkey 30 times" which isn't fun or particularly engaging the nineteenth time you have to do it. Colonists should merely automatically tend to the crops.

I don't think they should automatically tend to blighted crops. That would just turn it into an ignore-able event. I think instead blighted crops should count differently than normal crops in regards to double-click selection. Double click a blighted crop, select all blighted crops. Double click a non-blighted crop, select all non-blighted crops.

That way the player is still involved, but it doesn't turn into a 3 minute click session.