Long Term future of Rimworld

Started by sirdave79, July 11, 2014, 08:31:32 PM

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sirdave79

I saw Rimworld for the first time via the yogscast Sips' lets play videos. I liked how it looked and did a lot of reading. Ive watched some more lets plays and started trawling the forums.

Im going to say this is a copy of dwarf fortress.

Ill try to head off the negativity by saying firstly I dont think theres anything wrong with copying something.

Secondly the tactical aspects of the game really look like they add something significant. If I say the combat feels like real time xcom, im saying that from the point of view of someone who is watching someone else play. Ive played xcom and df loads and love them both.

Thirdly the UI looks amazing. As someone who has played, loved, lamented the UI for and braced myself for the complete lack of an imminent UI upgrade for, dwarf fortress, looking at the UI for rimworld makes me want to play it

Fourthly I think Rimworld "adventure mode"/roguelike RPG/procedural fallout type RPG a la Dwarf fortress would be amazing (and I have some idea that this might as well be a second gamein terms of work)

So if this is a copy of dwarf fortress, I say hurrah, because I love the sci-fi/western, firefly type setting, and playing dwarf fortress on that UI would be fun.

Ive just donated to DF, the first time I have ever donated money to a game. Id quite like to get rimworld at some point but some things may strongly influence when that purchase happens. Amongst the readings about rimworld I cant see much in the way of medium to long term policy/development goals for rimworld.

Im curious about the following, so if anyone has any links to discussion related to this please link, otherwise I suppose im asking the game developers/Tynan.

What level of emulation of df does rimworld seek to replicate ?

Ive read z levels, may be added not soon and that balance for available resources is tied to z levels which makes sense. Id like to see z levels.

Colonist procreation, ive read could be done in future not soon, and the idea "stories star with characters as children and end with characters as children.I tend to play DF in slow burn mode, turtling, and often enjoy breeding dwarf clans, which akes me feel more attached to them and their story. I totally understand the "theyll never have time to grow up" comment but I want it anyway.

More flavour. Ive read Tynan asking, would you rather see 10 variations of an existing item or 5 totally new items. Tynan's seemed to imply his view that 5 totally new is always better. Given rimworlds current state id probably agree. However a mixture of those as the game ages would be nice to see. Flavour crops, stone, metal and animals would definitely be something id hope to see given enough time.

So with those specific questions/issues in mind im also curious about realistic estimates of project longevity/sustainability/longterm vision/ultimate direction.

What id like to be the case is that this is a breakout success, that development is still continuing in 10 years and i see all my own personal desires met and exceeded. Dwarf fortress needs competition in awesomeness and ive not seen anything that comes as close as this. Also Df is fantasy and this is scifi so I dont see why they couldnt coexist. Also if this goes well it could finally shame df into doing something about its UI.

However, what I feel is more likely, looking at kickstarter numbers and thinking of the backgrounds of  Tynan and DFs author is that this game will not still be in development in 10 years. (Toady I suspect is something of an anomolous person let alone game designer from whom I consider myself lucky to be able to play dwarf fortress via)

So Ludeon Studios, do you have a guess/projection/hope for how long rimworld be in development for ?
Do you imagine the "adventure mode"/RPG thing has an above 0 chance of ever happening ?
Do you have a certain (rough) feature set that you envisage as "complete" with regard to a finished game that could be sold commercially and might represent a logical cessation of development based on sales performance?
Is there any chance of "true" expansions/second games/DLC(shorthand term)/properly continued development to continue for rimworld if only moderate sales success is acheived
If Rimworld is only moderately successful are the founders and employees of Ludeon going to disperse to the winds ?

I realise that a lot of the depth of df in terms of both flavour (various rocks and ores, massive bestiary, crop types (with brand new version)) and systems/mechanics ( z levels, thirst/drinking, ADVENTURE MODE, animal husbandry ) has come from a very long and protracted development period/process and that rimworld cannot mimic/improve upon that level of content in a small fraction of the time (caveats apply).

I also feel that df adventure mode (rimworld style) or possible a civilisation/sims style planet/multi settlement game mode or even a planetary/interstellar game mode comprise as much work as the entirety of rimworld currently though I am not a coder nor designer. And im trying to be realistic (but am quite excited).

Id like to say Rimworld looks like an amzing game and I think with a bunch of flavour could be sold as a commercial product in short time.

And finally id like to say great "work guys" to Ludeon and apologies for the massive wall of text.

Tynan

#1
Just to answer your direct questions.

0. DF is the biggest inspiration, no messing around. Certainly I reference that game lots. I really think, though, that DF essentially represents a nameless genre all on its own. Along with a few others like Towns, RimWorld is just one of the very few games in this unnamed genre. It really is very distinct from DF by the standards of any other genre - completely different setting, gun tactics, different events, storytellers, etc etc. It only seems similar because there are few games that seriously attempt to enter the DF-like genre. Consider genre-sharing pairs like UT vs Q3, C&C vs StarCraft, etc - these games are often more similar than DF and RW, but nobody really minds. It's normal.

1. As a general rule I don't make promises that I'm not quite sure I can keep. That includes pretty much any promise about future developments for a game that extend beyond a few weeks. Game development is just like that. You can't really predict it. So if I said something about the long-term future of RimWorld, it would just be a guess, and there's no value in me giving out my guesses and pretending they're anything else. So I'm sorry I can't give long-term projections. There are just too many variables.

Maybe you think it's annoying, sorry about that. I, however, wish to be able to say, in a few years, that I've never broken a promise.

2. Adventure mode is possible but unlikely. Based on its performance in the DF world I don't think it's a big winner. I have other directions I'd like to go with in RW first, and other games I'd like to make.

3. There's no specific list of features planned for the game to be 'complete'. I'm a big fan of giving up concepts that don't make sense in a new domain - even if they're concepts that are comforting or commonly accepted. Schedules (as I explained in point 1) are one of those concepts that I just abandoned in my dev methodology because I've seen them cause more problems than they solve. I've also abandoned the concept of a 'complete' game - at least for something like RimWorld. I could wrap it up, fix the bugs and big balance issues, and release a final version at the end of August. Or I could work on it for decades. Or even work, stop, work again. So I can't answer your question because it depends on a concept which doesn't apply.

4. There's a reasonable chance that I'll wrap up RimWorld at some point, maybe make another game, and maybe follow up on RimWorld with a pseudo-sequel some day. There are some steps up in functionality which are too big to really be done within the same game. So it might happen.

5. As the only founder and employee of Ludeon, I certainly hope that I don't 'disperse to the winds'. That sounds really painful!

But seriously. I'd like to build something longer-term with Ludeon but I don't really have a need to grow the headcount just to do it. I own the company so I don't have investors demanding that I grow the company or pump up the valuation. I'm in this for my own lifestyle, lifelihood, and creative satisfaction.

I don't really want to mange a bunch of lackeys. It's not what I've spent all these years training to do, which is to make design decisions. I don't want to become a manager.

Which really means I only want to either work with partners or train apprentices into partners. But finding people to fill either of these roles has proven difficult, especially with the logistical issues surrounding everyone being spread all over the planet.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

Vylsok

I've been waiting for a long time for a game like RimWorld, and I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I've already put in a few dozen hours and I can't imagine slowing down anytime soon.

In my opinion, the only expectation I have for a software developer is to deliver a working product based on the expectations set for me based on the marketing material....I'm still waiting for my Dance Studio, Blizzard.

I find it interesting that the post-Minecraft mindset seems to be that Indie developers must continue to iterate over the same project and continue to release new features. This of course happens in the same world where AAA titles sell you DLC before you even have a chance to play the real game.

Personally, I wish Indie Devs would take a page out of Paradox's book and start figuring out a way to continue to be compensated for our continued joy of the services you all provide.  I know I'm not alone if I figured out the cost per hour of entertaining me in games like Minecraft, Prison Architect, and now RimWorld I'd be looking at a few tenths of a cent per hour!

Finally, I'd like to point out that this game is already massively moddable in it's current state and you can expect the community to continue to add to the game as time goes on.  When this thing hits Steam it's going to EXPLODE.

tldr; Buy the game.

psilous

Tynan, as always a really great response! I for one have been extremely satisfied by the game and enjoyed every chance I've gotten to live the development process.

Tynan is the most transparent developer I know of and you can follow his work by checking out the change log in this thread
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=3420.0

I suggest joining the rest of us on this journey! This is definitely not a Star Command situation...

sirdave79

#4
Tynan

Thanks for the rapid and lengthy reply. I have read many of your responses and one of the things i didnt say because my post was getting a bit long is that you seem very professional and that the quality of your community interaction is second to none. So thanks for all of that.

I thought you employed an audio guy and an art guy, my bad, so maybe they work freelance. I just wanted to be inclusive! Agreed scattering yourself to the winds does sound painful!

I value higher, the man who says i will reach level 5 and does it than the man who says ill reach level 10 and who dies on level 7 with his stuff scattered everywhere. I just wanted to get an idea about the future and you have certainly given me that. So thanks again.

Ive played a lot of minecrft and used a lot of mods (ive checked out the available rimworld mods and for such an early game there is a lot and it looks good). I dont expect rimworld to still be developed in 5 years because minecraft did. Minecraft I think, like DF  is anomolous. Its a breakout success and ive read notch say words to the effect of "ive got the money for 10 years for mojang to survive with no other breakout success. That is that in 10 years if weve made no money then well wrap up the company and be grateful we had 10 fun years".

And it does seem sometimes like mojang is more of a social club. Id actually like to see mojang wrap up development of minecraft because some great mods have already fallen by the wayside not to be replaced with MC version changes.

So I dont expect that a game should be in development forever. At the end of the day the game/company has to make a profit or its not viable. Man gotta eat right ?

Its just since ive seen nothing like it in terms of how close it comes to df whilst adding something df doesnt have  I was curious whether rimworld worlds will "come to life" the way DF worlds, with the latest version are starting to do. (ie adventure mode and "stuff" taking place in the world regardless of what the player does).

I played DF for a long time before I realised that for all its world gen and flavour, the game totally revolves around the players "embark/site" and that history and world gen are turned off and that largely the players game/site is totally independant of the ridiculously well crafted "world". My desire to pump hours into DF was largely forstalled upon really grasping the state of its world and by this time the world being "turned on" was the next big thing in development (and its now landed after 2 years). I feel that this really makes playing the hell out of the game makes it more worthwhile.

It took DF a long time to get to the point that the world mattered and I was curious whether that is the vision for rimworld and whether its got a half decent chance of getting there.

"TLDR buy the game" Love the sentiments, everything ive seen and read makes me agree.

Reason I havent already is I dont like kickstarters and I dont like the way people are chucking money around just for the promise of someone they know nothing about. Ill probably buy rimworld at some point but I know that if rimworld finishes "fort mode" and never looks back ill probably be playnig df and not rimworld (despite the UI).

Anyways thanks to all and im glad my post was taken in the light it was intended

EDIT just seen mention of "world view modes" on the upcoming features in the wiki. Sounds like the sort of thing id like to see.

milon

Quote from: psilous on July 11, 2014, 11:49:50 PM
Tynan, as always a really great response! I for one have been extremely satisfied by the game and enjoyed every chance I've gotten to live the development process.

Tynan is the most transparent developer I know of and you can follow his work by checking out the change log in this thread
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=3420.0

I suggest joining the rest of us on this journey! This is definitely not a Star Command situation...
So much +1!
I don't get as much play time as I'd like, but that's life and it makes it even sweeter when I do get to play.

Grey_Mako

"Maybe you think it's annoying, sorry about that. I, however, wish to be able to say, in a few years, that I've never broken a promise."

I'm not sure you can really use this as bragging rights if you've never made promises either :)

That's kind of like me, with zero doctoring experience offering to do heart surgery on you and saying "Don't worry Tynan, I've not lost a patient yet!"

Vexare

Quote from: sirdave79 on July 12, 2014, 05:42:37 AM
"TLDR buy the game" Love the sentiments, everything ive seen and read makes me agree.

Reason I havent already is I dont like kickstarters and I dont like the way people are chucking money around just for the promise of someone they know nothing about. Ill probably buy rimworld at some point but I know that if rimworld finishes "fort mode" and never looks back ill probably be playnig df and not rimworld (despite the UI).

As someone who has bought into a lot of "Early Access" games on Steam and been really disappointed that such unfinished games that were 'copies' of other games and never even polished / completed after being green-lit and on Steam for a really long time, I can honestly say RimWorld does NOT fit into that category and as a standalone game, no mods, it has many many hours of solid playability even at this early stage of development.

While it's fine to compare a new game to DF or Minecraft, just keep in the back of your mind that those games went through long years of development and it was the community enthusiasm that made them solid classics. That's what I see happening with RimWorld and that's why I jumped in early, before it's even another number on the Steam queue where the gamer mentality is much lower and often insanely critical and petulant. I actually kind of wish Tynan wouldn't put this game on Steam to be honest. Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft are both examples of games that did fine as indies and no Steam backing. Sometimes putting games on Steam can ruin them in my opinion and I'm a big Steam fan so that's not the point. It's the player mentality that causes a whole attitude that can muck up the works.

I've taken the risk and shelled out money for Alpha games I wish I hadn't. This isn't one of them.

Since you've posted enough times here and been following it for some time, I encourage you to just take the leap and buy it and be a constructive part of the feedback community after you've had some time to play it hands on. Lets Plays on Youtube really only give you a spectator perspective. I loved the game far more than the videos I watched of it being played and those were even by the big names (Cohh Carnage) which convinced me to buy it. Playing it myself was way better. Love this game.


evrett33

#8
Quote from: Tynan on July 11, 2014, 10:29:14 PM
I own the company so I don't have investors demanding that I grow the company or pump up the valuation. I'm in this for my own lifestyle, lifelihood, and creative satisfaction .

Erm.. I think you do have investors. Investors who expect a product sooner rather than later.

Tynan

#9
Quote from: evrett33 on February 27, 2015, 04:38:42 PM
Erm.. I think you do have investors. Investors who expect a product sooner rather than later.

Nope, I have backers and customers, and they've all already gotten everything they were promised, barring a few final fixups.

EDIT: Of course we're still adding new goodies for everyone, but the game is there and I'm pretty happy with the state of it.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

evrett33

This has been a really unattractive dialog.

brobe94

Why does one need to grasp / know the "long-term" future of Rimworld to shell out the $30 it costs? In addition to what everyone has stated that people tend to shy away / been burned from alphas / kickstarters, I tend to think that TOO many people are looking for that next Minecraft where you spend $20-$30 bucks and end up playing it for YEARS. This is unreasonable. Do you ask the same of any AAA title? I would much rather spend the $30 for the game I have already played in RimWorld, than dish out $60 for a game I finish in 8 hours. It's not like Ludeon is asking for a subscription here... what you buy is what you get... anything else is just gravy in my opinion.

Games like this are refreshing to say the least, others can spend $60 a year subscription for games like Call of Duty and Madden, etc ... i'll stick to buying games where I know I will get a return on my investment, have my fun and move along when it is no longer supported.

(just to note, I'm not saying anyone in this thread is comparing this game to the likes of CoD / Madden, I am just conveying how I look at justifying buying games like RimWorld in my opinion)

tommytom

#12
$30 is a lot. Especially for an alpha/early-access game.

However, I did get to play the game a bit before buying and I must say spending the $30 was a no-brainer and worth every penny.

Honestly, if the game were free, I would have thrown $30 at Tynan and yelled "TAKE MY MONEY!"

These are the type of games you need to buy and support developers. I, myself, envision being a game/app developer some day and would want people to buy my product and enjoy it. Win-win.

You don't see that many indie games these days that are this good of quality. Especially from a single developer.

As far as being a "copy of DF", you could say exactly the same thing about Minecraft. Tynan and Notch have openly said DF was a huge influence on their repective games. I've watched videos of people playing DF, I have tried to play DF myself, and I like all the stuff about DF, but I don't want to play DF. When I seen a comment about how RimWorld was basically DF with a better UI/controls/graphics, I knew I was not looking for DF but instead looking for RimWorld.

It's NOT DF, but the spirit of DF is still there. If DF was updated to better graphics/etc, I would probably play DF AND RimWorld.

BTW, Notch sold Minecraft to Microsoft for 2.5 BILLION dollars *puts pinky to mouth*
Sad about that, somewhat (considering he didn't want anyone meddling in his plans, like steam controling in-game purchases, etc), but I stopped playing Minecraft long before it was "finished" (is it finished?).

evrett33

All the modmakers should go on strike and break their mods for a round. See how many people are playing vanilla Rimworld after a few months.

CodyRex123

:l Minecraft probably won't ever be finished, they will probably keep trying to add more to it, but eventaully, it probably will become a server/modded only thing...
A little bit grim future, but ehy, am not known for being social.
Dragons!