How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[JimmyAgnt007]

Having mortars cost ammo is good but i generally dont use them.  I dont think mountain bases should be nerfed or punished.  Its a valid base choice.  As long as things are 'realistic' then we should always be allowed to do it.  Not telling people they are having fun the wrong way and force them outside with punitive measures.

[stefanstr]

Having mortars cost ammo is good but i generally dont use them.  I dont think mountain bases should be nerfed or punished.  Its a valid base choice.  As long as things are 'realistic' then we should always be allowed to do it.  Not telling people they are having fun the wrong way and force them outside with punitive measures.

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

[JimmyAgnt007]

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

Maybe not with modern technology, but this game isnt really set with modern tech.  For all we know the colonists are using nano swarms to eat the rock or whatever. Would you rather we spend hours of realtime with the game at time warp 3 just to clear a tile?  You need to balance realism with fun.  Not punish people for playing differently than you.

[stefanstr]

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

Maybe not with modern technology, but this game isnt really set with modern tech.  For all we know the colonists are using nano swarms to eat the rock or whatever. Would you rather we spend hours of realtime with the game at time warp 3 just to clear a tile?  You need to balance realism with fun.  Not punish people for playing differently than you.

I have voiced my opinion earlier: I think the core of the mountain should be nearly impossible to mine. The outer layer with ores should be made slightly more difficult to mine, but not very hard.

I don't want to punish people for playing differently than I do. I almost always build mountain bases, so if anything, I have started this thread to brainstorm ideas on how to make outside bases more interesting/viable/playable. I don't understand why you have gotten so defensive.

[Quasarrgames]

I maintain that adding earthquakes as an event is the best way to entice people to make outside colonies. Outside colonies wouldn't be affected much, but inside colonies could have roofs crumbling everywhere, colonists being crushed or trapped, and rooms being buried under piles of rubble.

Also, it just makes sense that the planet would have lots of earthquakes, given the shear amount of  steam geysers on this planet.

[JimmyAgnt007]

It seemed like you were going towards punishment with realism.  Either way, mountains really dont get much more dense with depth.  The pressure just makes cave-ins more likely but I think that would be going too far.  Different types of rock could be harder to mine through, but depth is somewhat irrelevant since you can find things at any layer depending on the geography.  Making something impossible or near impossible to mine just seems punitive.  If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Earthquakes can damage buildings, even single story, in the open.  Maybe they can damage walls, then if walls fall and they are load bearing underground then you get cave-ins.

[Barley]

Good discussion to have. Thanks for bringing this up.

It is a tough balance problem to solve. I think the best, most obvious solution is to put players on the offensive more often. I tried to do that with sieges and the ship part, but I think it's not quite panning out that way with sieges. So maybe I could rework sieges and make them a bit more common, and perhaps add another kind of threat or opportunity that draws people out of their base. Anyone have any thoughts about what this could be?

Adding some further mood penalties for being underground for long periods may be a viable option as well. You can live underground, it's true - but it's really awful to be underground all the time.

I suggested a "Hive Queen" earlier whose premise was that it would steal local resources and turn them into mechaniods. It would be hard to implement, maybe impossible IDK, but I think its the principle that matters: The problem grows over time, not diminishes. That will force the players out; not a siege that can be avoided by tunneling, gives you free stuff, and becomes less dangerous over time.

As for living in a cave debuffs, living in a cave is generally preferable to living outside: The temperature is more constant and generally hovers around 30 degrees Celsius*. This is the principle behind Ground-Coupled air conditioning. If you can provide the proper amenities and raise the roof height to over 6 feet (maybe install a ceiling if rock bothers you) then you may as well be on the moon for all it matters. Especially since the current game build has no windows. I support the idea of new, underground dangers. Perhaps a few worm signs (the likes of which GOD has never seen)?
*Temperature varies with climate.

We should probably consider how little of a colony must be underground. I don't need my colonists to never see the light of day, I only need the dorm rooms, kitchen, and dining room underground. When a siege occurs, I merely cancel all jobs (except cooking), remove outside home regions, and remove outside stockpiles. The Colonists, now idle, will elect to gather around the dining room tables and chat, sleep, or maybe do botany on the hydroponic tables if I have them. Meanwhile, my outside constructions are safe because the Pirates only target colonists with mortars, and are thus obsessively firing into the mountainside.

[JimmyAgnt007]

What about raid escalation?  Starts out as some guys charging your base.  Then when that doesnt work they try different ways.  have a DONT GO THERE zone for when they discover killboxes.  So they may run into them once or twice but they learn to avoid them.  Instead they try attacking walls then maybe even mine through the rock themselves.  Somewhat like how undermining worked in castle sieges.  BUT! the raids dont stop till you take out their camp.  Their camp evolves from some dudes hanging out to some beds, buildings, sandbags, their own turrets, mortars, growing zones, basically making their own colony.  Constantly attacking and being reinforced.  Meaning they wont go away until you take them out.  When you fight off raiders at your base and they run away, they just go back to camp.  Of course the AI would need a good reworking for this.  But it does give you a reason to come out and deal with things.  The longer they stick around the more different ways they try to attack your base and the stronger they get.   

[stefanstr]

If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Agreed. Any ideas of your own on how to do it?

[JimmyAgnt007]

If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Agreed. Any ideas of your own on how to do it?

My first post on the first page detailed my main idea.  Nullify drop pod threats by giving us a shield or point defence system of some kind.  I just started a new game in the jungle, no mountains, and I'm going to see how it turns out.  Never really done a long term game that way and I am curious if it brings any new ideas. 

[stefanstr]

If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Agreed. Any ideas of your own on how to do it?

My first post on the first page detailed my main idea.  Nullify drop pod threats by giving us a shield or point defence system of some kind.  I just started a new game in the jungle, no mountains, and I'm going to see how it turns out.  Never really done a long term game that way and I am curious if it brings any new ideas.

I missed it, this thread has gotten quite long... I think that roofs should be constructed like floors, and not be an automatic feature. This way we could also benefit from the new stuff system and build them from stronger materials.

[Matthiasagreen]

I think there is an easy medium for mining speed that would reduce mountain bases. Leave the mining speed as it is for the metal ores and double or triple the time it takes for regular rock. There really is no reason for mining rock except to build bases and find ore. If you are looking for ore and the map is cleared of visible veins, then it I work to find more. And if you want to build underground, go for it. But you will have to work for it. This might make more people build an outside bases for a bit while they slowly make an underground base. Then you deserve the extra protection.

[Barley]

I don't see a slower mining speed as the solution. Personally, I won't stop embedding myself in a mountain just because it takes a week, instead of a day, to build an underground room. As long as the bunker is finished before the first siege it's a net gain for me. Until then some cheap wooden huts with no floors will store my food, beds, and prisoners.

[Kagemusha]

Gonna be repeating many things. If it's been said before I'm just plus one-ing it.

Slower mining would create a situation where a colony has to develop externally in the process of mining out a viable defensive position. I personally like the mixture of internal and external. And I also feel mining is too fast and easy.

Of course the real issue is that there is no incentive to build an external base. The main problem is that given the choice of internal or external there will always be a tendency to build internal so long as the danger of being outside is higher than the danger of being inside. This only becomes a problem when the game is being balanced for the most defensible position.

The last thing we need is to punish mountain bases. This, I think, we mostly agree upon. Adding some legitimate threats to a mountain base that are unique to a mountain base would be a great idea though. Balance out the risk versus reward equation. Mountain bases should be a little more difficult to build; whether this is more time spent at the start up, or more resources to make the area nicer. After all, rough cut stone is not a comfortable look.

Some closing bullet points.

-Earthquakes: I really like the idea of earthquake events. They can damage walls and possibly structures like geothermal plants and solar arrays. And if these walls are load bearing then there is the chance of roof collapses. In the case of a mountain base the threat of collapse is greater since the amount of roof is simply greater.

Quality over quantity: Decrease raider party sizes; increase armaments or strategies. Currently there is a feeling that we have to build up to be defensive and deal with large waves of raiders. It simply becomes too much effort to not build some manner of kill box. When we feel the need to exploit AI pathing and behaviour in order to just survive then the threat level is maybe too high.

External Incentives: I don't think we need incentives to build outside. All that needs to happen is that outside should not feel like a lost cause or a bad life choice. With diminished raid density, and improved raiding behaviour, players would feel more comfortable building a cozy town rather than feeling compelled to build a fort.

As a post script I will say that in the beginning I leaned immediately towards building into mountains simply because I could. I knew nothing about the games mechanics and had no concept of the raider waves I would face. I maintained an external presence and defended from bunkers with my colonists. I later upgraded to kill boxes that simply funneled the raiders to my colonists fire zones.

Lately I have been building external towns with a deliberate intention to not pre-emptively escalate my defenses without reason. This means building a survival outpost initially and after the first raids I put in a defensive wall or at least some perimeter sand-bags. Playing on Randy-Random this method generally is not a death-wish. It is enjoyable and when I die I feel that I had a good game. On Cassandra Classic I find the never-ending escalation means that my external colony has a time limit. I will die. Just a matter of time, more often than not the same amount of time.

As a final point, which I've seen many people suggest, I would love to see the Raiders behave like raiders; that they try to steal from the colony rather than just attack all out until they are repelled. I have noticed with the new morale and injury system I am repelling the raids more easily and the raiders do run more frequently from the battle. This is good. It's the best part of having an town to watch the raiders retreat after the hard efforts of your colonists to scare them off. It should not be a matter of having to kill enough raiders to get them to retreat. Raiders should be discouraged from attacking a well defended position. Enough bullets fly your way and you should opt to come back later rather than just charge in to get a lucky kill on a colonist. I would love for raiders to feel more human. They are raiding to get supplies or prisoners. If the raiding target is too strong then you siege it to soften it up.

On the note of sieges I would also like to see the siege camps produce their own food. Or be resupplied if possible. Currently I have never had a siege that felt like a threat. I knew it would always collapse on itself (or at the select fire of my snipers).

Apologies for wall of text.

Also, I am under the impression that many of these things are already going to change in the upcoming alpha but doesn't hurt to share our thoughts. It's said all the time but it cannot be said enough: Tynan, you are awesome and amazing. Keep up the good work.

[Johnny Masters]

Thanks for reading Fenderson, i'm glad at least someone reads some of my ramblings.

1): Yes, a research tree to improve mining speed would be one decent solution if not taking the tools one. It has the added benefit of  getting more out of the research table.

2)  By all means, play dungeon keeper! I though that less veins, that would yield metal at a faster rate than you mine metal and takes longer to get "erased" would actually make things better for those who like to dig in, because your cave doesn't look like a swiss cheese, less patching up those mining holes.

3): kicking a wood door should work as it is now, but powered doors shouldn't be able to be taken down by punches. What happens now is that when you are attacked, you have to close all your doors with walls, and it gets kinda of annoying.

Either way, i'm all up for research improving things over time, should have a cap probably, but improvements all the same.

4) Oh, i was thinking about only one tool/gear, so only one of your guys would be able to use it. Although you could, in this "system' of mine, pick another copy of equipment. Perhaps the box comes with 2

6) Yes, actually that was what i meant, rock walls would always give the negative mood, not just recently dug ones. So yes, you'd have to carve a way to put down proper walls.

Thanks for the feedback all. Taking some notes here.

Thank's for listening

Btw, what do you mean by not going 3d or going full 3d? You mean implementing z levels?

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I also argue against a further penalty to cabin fever. I Agree with Jimmy, people adapt and unless you have something (claustrophobia), you could actually be happy that you are inside a bunker instead of outside.

Perhaps adding a time limit to Geothermal energy?

I myself dislike resource limitations like these. In the case of rimworld, i don't think a few month's would be enough to drain thermal energy, if you could ever do that. 10 thousand years, or 10 thousand millions years perhaps would be more plausible, unless you have some sort of geological reformulation (earthquakes).

But i'm all for giving opportunities to make you go out, or have structures in the out to help some sort of activity (we already have solar panels, farming, orbital storage), we could think of a few more, perhaps start another thread?

Okay well, I feel bad about building killboxes because while they're efficient, they're only that way because raiders pour into them and get nailed.  And then you get their gear.  Rinse well with soapy water and repeat.

Me too! I've posted about it a few weeks ago. Kill boxes are fun against hordes, but it gets old quick and feels like the only way to defend yourself (short of walling), i also feel like I'm exploiting the AI, and feel like the AI slap me back with that by sending bazzilion troops against me. Fewer enemies with more advanced tactics and options (climbing walls, harassing, stealing, etc), also stuff that steanfstr suggested, sounds like a better alternative.

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

Maybe not with modern technology, but this game isnt really set with modern tech.  For all we know the colonists are using nano swarms to eat the rock or whatever. Would you rather we spend hours of realtime with the game at time warp 3 just to clear a tile?  You need to balance realism with fun.  Not punish people for playing differently than you.

Actually the game is kinda of a tech mess, since there's people from all types of technological levels (jungle world primitives, glitterworld researches, etc). Also, if you had a nano swarms to eat rock why there are none to eat wood? or to build faster or turn raiders into dust?


I think slower mining is the way to go, or a nice start. It seems hurtful to change that because that's what the game offered from the start, so it's hard to let go. However, there should be some options that will change this. I've come with:

a) Mining is slow, like reality, and on par with the speed of other jobs
b) The game has tools.
c) Every new game, you get a starting kit containing a random or selectable amount of equipment or goods.
d) One of the possible equipment is a mining tool that carves rock at the speed we now have, so you could start a game with a gauss cannon, 50 units of medkits or a mining tool, your choice. ( the contents and amounts of the starting kit are debatable, i'm just tired of the same pistols and enfields).
e) research improves mining. So diggin-in is a sort of a branch on a defense tech tree.
"should i go shields or manned gatlings or should i get those mining tools and dig in?"
If you chose to get mining tools, you'd build makeshift accomodations outside for a while, then you move in inside. If you like staying outside, you'd research shields or other types of defenses.

There's a reason why most human dwelings are built outside : it's cheaper and easier to build and move about
And, of course, there's a reason why you have underground bases and bunkers: they are easier to defend and conceal. The price is that they are harder to built, requires more technique and investment. Give me the most advanced mining tool in the 'verse and put me to build an underground cave. I'd be under debris before you could say "MENTAL BREAKDOWN".

Hmmm

perhap's mining speed should be more affected by skill? I mean, REALLY affected.  skill 3 taking realistic aeons of time and a 15 would be about what we have now?

perhap's building under rock would require a certain amount of mining skill?
This could be a new thing, skill synergies. Hmm, would have to think about it.

Regards,