Unstable build feedback thread

[Teleblaster18]

The only statistic provided here is "Range", which is clearly defined. This "Range" is broken out into four "effective" categories of accuracy, also clearly defined.  "Long" range covers the maximum distance of accuracy.  There IS no further statistical probability of getting hit beyond "Long". 

Long IS the maximum distance. 

2 of 3 pawns got hit beyond "Long" range.  That's broken.

Long range is defined in Accuracy (Long) as 40 tiles and more. Your people were closer than 40 tiles. They were hit not beyond long range.

Now please explain, clearly and concisely, what both the "Range" of 27 for a Charge Blaster and the corresponding graphic radius that is visible on the screen when clicking on ANY weapon in the game are supposed to indicate.

[bbqftw]

@greep I hope you are appropriately treating your weapons, it would be a real pity if their resale value tragically tanked through a mishap!! good luck making it to max point raids, I believe in you~

blabla merciles / cas / biggest commitment / noob biome / year 4

I decided to ethically fight 80 tribal sappers (e.g. not path manipulating them into a totally fair kill setup), unfortunately now due to lack of funneling the tribals cannot be conveniently torched since they managed to break into my super secret storeroom. Imagine this but like 10x over strewn through my base.


disrespectful!

Without my army of hauler doggos and careful pawn criteria (anyone not at least optimist+one other good trait gets tossed) I fear my pawns would be driven mad many times over now at the sight of corpse strewn base. Who would have known that tribals could invent such psychologically destructive tactic on par with an early progression psychic ship simply by using their dead bodies. At least mechanoids don't bleed over my carefully curated floors and drop worthless weapons further taxing my poor haulers  

Now for those of you who are actually wealth managing and ethical players, thus cannot afford the raid point boost from haul-doggos, what is your corpse disposal mechanism? I feel like this and ultra wealth control are the true hallmarks differentiating idiots like me and true masters of the game

PS anyone know whether bionic heart users can take heart attacks??

[erdrik]

Range indicates one thing only:  the maximum distance which that projectile can travel. 
...
Any game mechanic which allows a projectile to travel past it's set maximum range is broken.

At no point does the game imply or describe a maximum range.
The very fact that you can qualify a range as maximum implies that range alone is not the maximum.

If a Short Range Ballistic Missile has a maximum range of 650 miles, this means something.
It means it cannot magically travel 700 miles.
I'm finding it hard to fathom how this is even an issue that's debatable.

Im wondering how it is debatable as well.

If a missile has a maximum fuel range of 650 miles, then when that fuel runs out it will continue along it's trajectory, past it's stated fuel range, until the combined forces of gravity and air friction pulls it to the ground. How much farther past it's stated "maximum" fuel range it travels is a function of it's velocity and trajectory when it ran out of fuel, it's altitude, and the forces of gravity and air resistance.

Bullets work the same way, except they expend their fuel as they leave the barrel of the gun.

This is not semantics. Its basic physics. There is no such thing as a maximum range.

[Madman666]

Ask that of Tynan, if you want a 100% correct information. For me "Range" stat of 27 on a weapon means it can be successfuly aimed at a target situated within 27 tiles of a pawn wielding it. Corresponding graphic radius shows exactly that, you can aim at anything within it, you can't at anything further. It never said anything about max range anywhere, so i see no reason to assume it is.

[Teleblaster18]

Let's take EMP's.

An EMP has a "Range" of 13.  Note the limit of the circle is exactly 13 tiles.  Why is this indicated?  So I know that I cannot throw it 14 tiles. Or 15. 

RANGE INHERENTLY IMPLIES MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF TRAVEL.

[Greep]

PS anyone know whether bionic heart users can take heart attacks??

So far every lump raid, I've had the 4 terminators take wake up.  No heart attacks yet.  Seems unlikely, but hard to say yet.

As for corpses disposal, luckily I can take my sweet ass time.  On sea ice they stay fresh so I can even leave corpses everywhere if I want. -7 I can deal with.

[erdrik]

Let's take EMP's.
An EMP has a "Range" of 13.  Note the limit of the circle is exactly 13 tiles.  Why is this indicated?  So I know that I cannot throw it 14 tiles. Or 15.
RANGE INHERENTLY IMPLIES MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF TRAVEL.

Grenades have an AoE.
The AoE extends past the stated range.

It will produce the exact same situation that kicked off this tirade(EDIT: that we are both fueling, which is why I will be stopping after this).
The stated range is not maximum.

[Teleblaster18]

Range indicates one thing only:  the maximum distance which that projectile can travel. 
...
Any game mechanic which allows a projectile to travel past it's set maximum range is broken.

At no point does the game imply or describe a maximum range.
The very fact that you can qualify a range as maximum implies that range alone is not the maximum.

If a Short Range Ballistic Missile has a maximum range of 650 miles, this means something.
It means it cannot magically travel 700 miles.
I'm finding it hard to fathom how this is even an issue that's debatable.

Im wondering how it is debatable as well.

If a missile has a maximum fuel range of 650 miles, then when that fuel runs out it will continue along it's trajectory, past it's stated fuel range, until the combined forces of gravity and air friction pulls it to the ground. How much farther pasted it's stated "maximum" fuel range it travels is a function of it's velocity and trajectory when it ran out of fuel, it's altitude, and the forces of gravity and air resistance.

Bullets work the same way, except they expend their fuel as they leave the barrel of the gun.

This is not semantics. Its basic physics. There is no such thing as a maximum range.

I really don't even know how to address all the flaws of logic in the statements that you just made.  My head is actually starting to hurt from this.

To illustrate my point, please explain why you can never, under any circumstances, throw an EMP grenade 14 tiles.  Please feel free to try this yourself.

If you're able to after 100 tries, please provide a screenshot of it.  I can save you time and trouble, though...you won't be able to.  The reason is simple: the range of a thrown EMP is 13 tiles.  Not 14.  If you were able to throw it 14, then 14 would be it's new Range.

Edit: I've managed to do exactly what I stated could not be done, and retract the statement - please see my last post on this page for why this is concerning to me.

[Madman666]

RANGE INHERENTLY IMPLIES MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF TRAVEL.

Aand implications are subjective. You might be seeing something, that noone intended you to see there. Those EMP grenades also have a miss chance and can actually with a bad enough thrower fly out of that magic ring. Its doesn't say anywhere, that 13 tiles is a maximum distance that guy can throw an EMP to. So why the heck it has to imply its a maximum?

[Greep]

I think you guys need to let this go lol.  I'm sure tynan gets the point

[Teleblaster18]

Let's take EMP's.
An EMP has a "Range" of 13.  Note the limit of the circle is exactly 13 tiles.  Why is this indicated?  So I know that I cannot throw it 14 tiles. Or 15.
RANGE INHERENTLY IMPLIES MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF TRAVEL.

Grenades have an AoE.
The AoE extends past the stated range.

It will produce the exact same situation that kicked off this tirade(EDIT: that we are both fueling, which is why I will be stopping after this).
The stated range is not maximum.

There IS no Area of Effect for a Charge Blaster round.  A Charge Blaster round does damage to the target alone, and not to any bystanders.

[Teleblaster18]

I think you guys need to let this go lol.  I'm sure tynan gets the point

I'm sure he does, and the argument or the veracity with which I've pursued it has nothing to do with being heated, or being heated with the game (I'm not either of those);  it has to do with pointing out something I genuinely believe needs to be addressed in the combat system, but being presented with invalid reasons as to why it doesn't need to be addressed. 



There's a reason why I'm pursuing it hard, btw: because it genuinely matters to gameplay.

Premise: If you're attempting to micro a Centipede by staying out of it's range by fighting it out in the open: it is important, maybe even critical, to know what range you need to be out of.

Now, if the range statistic and the range circles are giving a false sense of security (you think you're "safe" when you're really very much in danger)...that's a serious problem to gameplay that transcends my own example, and even more so when 1.0 is encouraging more "open field" tactics instead of "killbox/trapmaze" solutions.

If the range statistics and circles are accurate, and pawns are getting shot when they shouldn't be?  That's an equally troubling problem.  Either way, there's a potential problem.


Either it will be looked at and addressed by the only person whose determination on the issue really counts - Tynan's - or it won't.

[Relik]

...  It left me having some concerns about the current state of combat mechanics.
 

( 22.5 hrs last two weeks / 258.1 hrs on record )
(Plus unlogged time since I originally bought it direct)

Concerns?  That's an understatement.

The combat in vanilla absolutely sucks!  The Combat Extended mod fixes almost all of the suck luckily.

x Shotguns that are actually made up of several projectiles.
x Ballistic energy properly modeled instead of having short bows pierce plate armor. 
x I could go on, but why.

I've been trying to help with 1.0 testing, but so many things are wrong with this game without mods.  I'll have to put it aside until CE comes out at a later date.

Combat Extended opened my eyes to what this game could be and I can't go back to playing a random die roll system again. 

EDIT: 7 out of 8 of my colonists have at least 1 toe shot off.  I'd honestly like to know how common this is in combat injuries as it's an extraordinarily small target to hit.  I'd rather see things like permanent knee injuries than toe-less colonists everywhere.  Speaking of that, where are the shoes??  Is everyone wandering around barefoot?

Don't get me wrong, so much else in this game is good that I keep coming back, despite the awful combat mechanics.

EDIT 2: Loaded up a B18 save on a different PC still running B18 and 0 out of 7 colonists have toes shot off.  One has an eleventh rib destroyed.  This is roughly the same time into the game at same difficulty/storyteller.  Something has changed...  And as far as I can tell, pants only protect legs not feet even in B18.  Tynan mentioned something about taking a single injury / trap strike and spreading it out over several locations - could this be the culprit?

[Injured Muffalo]

Randy
Rough
Temperate forest
Permadeath
Age 5 days
Hours - 1 (holy crap, 5 days per hour)
No modification


- The "Bio" label. I know this one changed several times. Anyway, I do not enjoy it. I even prefer "Char" which I wasn't too hot on either. What about "Skills?" I know there's other stuff on the panel but 99.9% of the time you're using it, you're looking at the skills. Or how about "Traits?" Eh, I don't love "Traits" but "Bio" just sounds like biology or something.

- Speaking of traits, I find the new traits very interesting. Good stuff. Of course, I'm liking it as long as they're good, haha.

- Undrafting causes colonists to drop prisoner/patients. I don't enjoy having to monitor the process of bringing them back to the colony before I can undraft and therefore treat the wounded or do anything else. Or micromanage picking them up again in possibly dangerous conditions when they had to be drafted to be in the area or fight. So yeah, 1st priority on undrafting, don't cancel the task.

- Combat learning feels very fast compared to B18.

- A doctor relaxed at my campfire instead of tending someone who was going to bleed to death in 11 hours. Old complaint, huh?

- Skill progression exciting. By this I mean I know cutting trees and chopping stone now grants skills, and so it feels different than in the past when I knew certain tasks were just drudgery; and they now feel rewarding.

- Colonists undrafted in remote areas chose to haul materials nearby. Great!

-  The tab key does nothing on the faction name dialog. Actually I am now suspecting the tab key does nothing anywhere in the game. How annoying.

- I created a zone and was given this dim gray color that was nearly impossible to see. I hated it. I decided a different color was necessary. I went back to the zones dialog to discover the only way to change the color was to make an entirely new zone and do all the work over again. Why can't I change the color of a zone without remaking it?

- Alex ignored nearby simple meals to grab survival meals on the other side of the map. The reason this happened is I made my stockroom into a temporary prison and suddenly all the food within was reserved for prisoners. Unpleasant game interfacing. I have to tell everyone to eat from the prison or make a food zone I don't want until the colony is more developed.

- The social chat, as mentioned, is hilarious.
"May made a comment about hostile smiths to Alex."
"May offered a chance for Hurtle to find common ground around practicing with howitzers."
Watch out for those smiths; you can't trust them.

- I tried to recruit Hurtle directly without doing the resistance step. What resulted was reduction in resistance. So as of now I don't know what the point of the resistance button is. Seems redundant. Is there a reason to reduce resistance but not recruit? I hope it's not some gamey "I want to keep resistance at 0 so I can recruit this guy at will" type rationale.

true skill right now is burning/melting down the 35k wealth of weapons the 75 man raid in year 2 just dropped before the next big threat comes

I failed at this and was rewarded by a psychic ship containing 9x timewasters, 4x storyteller. On the bright side mechs yield so little from deconstruction now so your wealth is controlled!!! I'm the real winner here.

Hahaha, timewasters and storytellers. It's sad that I know what that means.

[NiftyAxolotl]

Story time!       yayyyyy

Cass, Survival Struggle, Permadeath, no mods
Tribal, Temperate Forest (50/60) with small hills.
Day 270ish, 300k wealth.
130 trained animals. Mostly Alpacas, the rest Labradors and Wargs.
13 colonists. Advanced, high quality gear and bionics.

An outlander siege! Twenty-three damnable raiders from the Omeda Union threaten our honest flock. But they make a fatal mistake! They decide to set up their makeshift fortifications right next to a Poison Ship that we have ignored for a whole quadrum (it is far enough away not to sour the dandelion fields). We have four mortars, and the second shot awakens the mechanoids. Sometimes, raids go wrong! See image...

...That is 7 centipedes and 26 scythers+lancers. That brigand Snow in the marine armor, who is in the middle of a yayo ritual when the mechanoids open fire, overdoses and falls to the ground twitching. The rest of the raiders are slaughtered in seconds. A couple mortar shots land, doing mild damage to some and killing two scythers. Now the mechanoids are headed to the pastures. Oh no! They'll cut our herd to pieces!

We have been experimenting with how to mix turrets and traps in with my herd. There are lattices of IED traps on all major approaches. On this side of the base, we have three mini-turrets in protective plus-shaped bastions and one uranium slug turret with a dominating field of fire.

The battle is bloody. Twenty-six animals die in the carnage - six of them to an IED mishap. Two of the colonists are caught in IED blasts, but are miraculously unharmed. Two mini-turrets explode and about a dozen IED traps serve their purpose. One colonist has painful burns on his leg - he leapt through flames to wedge his thrumbo tusk spear into a centipede's articulation servo, just as it was lining up a devastating volley. Such heroics and quick thinking! No other colonists sustained any injuries.

Our defenses have been proven by this battle, despite the painful loss of so many loyal animals. As expected, the enemy separated and fought expendable turrets, giving us time to group and focus fire on one front. We have lessons to apply. We need field bunkers for our sharpshooters to occupy, and we need wide hallways with short blinds, for our stampede to take enemy squads by surprise. But the integration of advanced technology has given us a powerful combined-arms defense system.

As the blasts and bleats cease and the field goes quiet, a blurred mind slowly comes back into focus. He remembers himself - Snow, an Omeda Platoon Officer - and stands up to take command. But his platoon lies charred and butchered on the ground. He doesn't see the attackers, or anyone at all. Still not in full control of his faculties, he panics and runs - stumbles, falls, crawls - off into the wilderness.

[attachment deleted due to age]