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ADU's, Automated Defense Units are military robots designed for domestic defense.

Their short battery life puts limit on their effective activity range. When they run out of battery power, they are required to be hauled by colonists to their charging stations connected to the grid where they recharge at a 1000W rate. The charging station is vulnerable to short-circuiting in humid environment and needs to be kept in enclosed space.

-Has to be researched.
-Expensive; lots of metal, lots of space, lots of energy, lots of workforce for construction and repair.
-Use energy at twice their charging speed.
-Attract lightening.
-Their Artificial Grey Matter can short-circuit and cause them to do the opposite of intended function.

Other AUs (Variety increases required space, resources and energy):

ARU's, Automated Repair Units.
Civilian robots designed to repair damaged systems and buildings within the colony.
Much like their military cousins, they hold a limited charge and need to be hauled to recharging stations by colonists when they run out of energy.

ACU's, Automated Cleaning Units.
Their sole purpose is to clean the filth the humans cause.

AHU's, Automated Harvesting Units.
Designed to harvest what humans sow. They gather less food from a plant than a colonist.

What's the point of having colonists then? Why not have a colony full of robots that constructs robots that make other robots do robot work?


Sorry for the troll, but it is a little too advance for our stupid colonists.

As ive stated previously on other threads, the only robot i see (at present) as viable, is a repair robot, that is used purely to run along circuits, walls etc... that are inaccessible to our colonists (due to their inferior armlength!) - so we can build circular structures in cave systems without worrying about our walls eventually degrading to such a state the whole place burns down.

I'd personally only want robots that do tasks that give no real benefit to a colonist, like Cleaning. I say no "real benefit" in that almost all other tasks level up one or more of their skills, that allows them to do that skill better. As cleaning isn't linked to any particular skill, and a base after a firefight can get quite messy with blood everywhere, a cleaning robot would be ideal, as your colonists tend to be too busy to ever get to it themselves.

QuoteWhat's the point of having colonists then? Why not have a colony full of robots that constructs robots that make other robots do robot work?

That's exactly my question! Why not? :) :)

But seriously - just make a robot be able to do only one thing and you'll be happy for some universal colonists.

Quote from: Pakislav on January 13, 2014, 12:50:12 PM
ADU's, Automated Defense Units are military robots designed for domestic defense.

Their short battery life puts limit on their effective activity range. When they run out of battery power, they are required to be hauled by colonists to their charging stations connected to the grid where they recharge at a 1000W rate. The charging station is vulnerable to short-circuiting in humid environment and needs to be kept in enclosed space.

-Has to be researched.
-Expensive; lots of metal, lots of space, lots of energy, lots of workforce for construction and repair.
-Use energy at twice their charging speed.
-Attract lightening.
-Their Artificial Grey Matter can short-circuit and cause them to do the opposite of intended function.

Other AUs (Variety increases required space, resources and energy):

ARU's, Automated Repair Units.
Civilian robots designed to repair damaged systems and buildings within the colony.
Much like their military cousins, they hold a limited charge and need to be hauled to recharging stations by colonists when they run out of energy.

ACU's, Automated Cleaning Units.
Their sole purpose is to clean the filth the humans cause.

AHU's, Automated Harvesting Units.
Designed to harvest what humans sow. They gather less food from a plant than a colonist.

Remember tynan has stated our colonists are not "professional colonists"  i doubt any of them could build a robot.and the world we are on is in an strange quasi industrial state, robots are for higher tech level people and people whoa are trained to ONLY BUILD ROBOTS in my opinion.

According to tynan we are in the middle tech level in game.

On the main website:

Quote
Your starting colonists in RimWorld are at a technological level in the middle of this span. But you may end up interacting with people at much lower and higher levels, as well as acquiring and using their tools and weapons. In RimWorld, a single fight can involve a bow and arrow, a revolver, a charged-shot pulse rifle, and a near-magical teleportation device.

Here is the quick primer for backers.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

But tynan has also stated that he is interested (especially) in "Machine life" (robots?) Perhaps you could buy them from a rare trader? Getting tech from higher tech level people, IS allowed.

There is actually already some "Gun robot" placeholder in the game. It can't appear in the game, but it's probably quite planned.

I hope we get "Robot traders" (a trader that sells robots)

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 13, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Remember tynan has stated our colonists are not "professional colonists"  i doubt any of them could build a robot.and the world we are on is in an strange quasi industrial state, robots are for higher tech level people and people whoa are trained to ONLY BUILD ROBOTS in my opinion.

Some of them actually are, and those that are, are the ones that probably wouldn't be able to construct a robot. A researcher is more fitting to the job, no? ;)
And yes, Tynan said we are in the middle technology tier, which means interplanetary/stellar spacecraft. Robots fall short of that.
I don't see why even a medieval slave oaf with no research would be able to construct solar panels, automatic turrets and nutrient paste dispensary, but not a simple robot.

Quote from: Pakislav on January 14, 2014, 12:42:10 PM

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 13, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Remember tynan has stated our colonists are not "professional colonists"  i doubt any of them could build a robot.and the world we are on is in an strange quasi industrial state, robots are for higher tech level people and people whoa are trained to ONLY BUILD ROBOTS in my opinion.

Some of them actually are, and those that are, are the ones that probably wouldn't be able to construct a robot. A researcher is more fitting to the job, no? ;)
And yes, Tynan said we are in the middle technology tier, which means interplanetary/stellar spacecraft. Robots fall short of that.
I don't see why even a medieval slave oaf with no research would be able to construct solar panels, automatic turrets and nutrient paste dispensary, but not a simple robot.

You think a robot would be easier to build then a solar panel and a food dispenser?

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser that simply squashes things and dispenses the squashed stuff (which i bet is what the "nutrient paste" dispenser does.. It is also beyond the bits of silicone needed to make a solar panel. And the AI is beyond that of an auto turret.

Colonist 1 (a lifelong Tinkerer): *Grabs a bunch of electrical wires and metal and blades that fell from the spaceship*
colonist 1: *Makes something similar to a blender with it* (albeit a rather large blender, because he has no idea how to do something like this at a small scale with what is available to him)
*throws spinach potatoes and banana in it"
*adds eggs*
*blends it all up until its a fine paste*
Colonist 1:"Here you go"
Colonist 2: "What is that crap?"
Colonist 1: "I call it nutrient paste, its super nutritious"
Colonist 2: *eats a small amount*
Colonist 2: "Nutrient paste eh?, its pretty good"

Actually you can build your own solar panel in your kitchen if you have the ability t get the solar cells or make your own from copper (you can make low yeild solar cells from copper), of course processed silicone is best.
Assuming the colonists have access to copper (which they do) or solar cells fell from the ship, they could cobble together a solar panel.
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/echem2.html

But they couldn't cobble together a robot with that stuff especially one with AI taht requires a-lot of technology.

A medieval oaf honestly shouldn't be able to build those anyway (even though they can in the game right now). He is from a medieval world. tHat lacks technology beyond an iron sword. He was probably being carted as a slave.

Quoteinterplanetary/stellar spacecraft

Interstellar spacecraft eh?
What he means by "Not professional colonists" is that they aren't prepared for this, It was just a cruise ship that crashed.

Quote
In RimWorld, your colonists are not professional settlers â€" they’re survivors from a crashed passenger liner. They'll be accountants, homemakers, journalists, cooks, nobles, urchins, and soldiers.

I doubt an accountant could build a robot from scratch.I can also assure you that the accountant didn't build the spacecraft.

Also rimworlds, as stated by tynan, are usually in an industrial tech level, which is why we have no energy guns unless we buy them or get them late game, because the tech of the planet we are on is at the tech level where people are still using pistols and bullets.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub\

also:

Quote
Your starting colonists in RimWorld are at a technological level in the middle of this span. But you may end up interacting with people at much lower and higher levels, as well as acquiring and using their tools and weapons. In RimWorld, a single fight can involve a bow and arrow, a revolver, a charged-shot pulse rifle, and a near-magical teleportation device.

I believe we should get robots from a trader. Not build them. It makes more sense this way.

QuoteI doubt an accountant could build a robot from scratch.

So there may be accountants but not engineers? Your logic is not logical. It's only question of what people will you get.

If you wanna be realistic, think it over one more time. Just the logic of yours:

What's a defense robot, than a walking auto-turret?
The most complicated task for robots is to automatically detect and acquire targets. Computer vision. That's something Auto turret needs to detect human and attack him.


And if one can automatically acquire moving targets, why not static ones like potato plants (harvesting robot)?

Also keep in mind that at the point where you're able to create gun, a simple leg mechanics is just fun. Guns are not just hollow sticks.
And if you don't like legs - they can have wheels, that's more fun anyway. There could be those tiny black cleaning robots from star wars.
If you know how automatic cleaners work, you must admit that this is rather a matter of good software. You could make one with ATMega, 2-4 infra-sensors to detect walls and the cleaning HW.

I also like to imagine the way to charge the robots - build a charging area and have them literally come and charge themselves.

Oh... I thought the way the Nutrient Paste Dispensers created food was similar to how Stroggs made stroyent, by breaking down organic compounds with enzymes into the component parts needed to provide energy and the like to whoever got some.

If its just a blender, then we are technically having potatoe smoothie. Ewww. How is that "better" than a Raw Potato?

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 14, 2014, 12:59:00 PM
The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser...

Here is a defense robot made from rubbers and paper. (http://youtu.be/HlPrOypwt-w) All arguments are now invalid.

Quote from: palandus on January 14, 2014, 02:08:29 PM
Oh... I thought the way the Nutrient Paste Dispensers created food was similar to how Stroggs made stroyent, by breaking down organic compounds with enzymes into the component parts needed to provide energy and the like to whoever got some.

If its just a blender, then we are technically having potatoe smoothie. Ewww. How is that "better" than a Raw Potato?

Because it is more filling, easier to eat. (the colonists still get a minus 8 from eating it)

I was just saying there is many ways that a group of people could go about "inventing" a "nurtrient paste" dispenser. Without super robot AI i robot technology.

Quote from: Darker on January 14, 2014, 02:02:07 PM

QuoteI doubt an accountant could build a robot from scratch.

So there may be accountants but not engineers? Your logic is not logical. It's only question of what people will you get.

If you wanna be realistic, think it over one more time. Just the logic of yours:

What's a defense robot, than a walking auto-turret?
The most complicated task for robots is to automatically detect and acquire targets. Computer vision. That's something Auto turret needs to detect human and attack him.


And if one can automatically acquire moving targets, why not static ones like potato plants (harvesting robot)?

Also keep in mind that at the point where you're able to create gun, a simple leg mechanics is just fun. Guns are not just hollow sticks.
And if you don't like legs - they can have wheels, that's more fun anyway. There could be those tiny black cleaning robots from star wars.
If you know how automatic cleaners work, you must admit that this is rather a matter of good software. You could make one with ATMega, 2-4 infra-sensors to detect walls and the cleaning HW.

I also like to imagine the way to charge the robots - build a charging area and have them literally come and charge themselves.

Then why is it that modern humanity has turrets that can acquire targets, but not robots that run around shooting and acquiring targets?

Because it is alot more then just a "walking autoturret"
You need to be able to path find in real space. This can be done, requires years upon years upon years of research, not to mention allowing them to have orders to stay around and patrol.Avoiding friendly fire. (calculating bullet trajectory to make sure when they are shooting at a bad guy that one of their comrades doesnt run in front of the bullets. which turrets don't do)
Hiding behind cover.
Making tactical descicians in real time, without a person remote controlling them. <-- super hard to do
(and no, you can't say it works because the player is controlling them because in game the player isnt really "there" so to speak.)

Communicating with the colonists, to make plans. (a sort of chat-programming system)

all of that.

In one piece of super advanced software on a robot made of metal.

Your point is invalid itself.

Quote from: Darker on January 14, 2014, 02:19:31 PM

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 14, 2014, 12:59:00 PM
The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser...

Here is a defense robot made from rubbers and paper. (http://youtu.be/HlPrOypwt-w) All arguments are now invalid.

.
I don't think you understood my argument.

My point was that , you don't need to have super high Artificial intelligence technology to build the things he pointed out. (in his case auto turrets, solar panels, and nutrient dispensers)
So the fact that a person could build a useless robot that shoots, out of paper, means that autoturrets are perfectly possible without high technology.(which you do need to make advanced star wars style, AI robots)

Quote
Some of them actually are, and those that are, are the ones that probably wouldn't be able to construct a robot. A researcher is more fitting to the job, no? ;)
And yes, Tynan said we are in the middle technology tier, which means interplanetary/stellar spacecraft. Robots fall short of that.
I don't see why even a medieval slave oaf with no research would be able to construct solar panels, automatic turrets and nutrient paste dispensary, but not a simple robot.

So in order to have a nutrient dispenser, solar panels and a auto turret without the tech to build super intelligent robots (which only appear at higher tech levels) is perfectly possible and is more likely.

And therefore my point is valid.

Thank you.

I am firmly against colonists building robots, buy em from higher tech traders.

I think robots make perfect sense. Like in FTL building a defense droid has it's uses but in no way replaces a human really. It compliments them when they are short on manpower for a specific role. Plus robots are just fun. Wether it cleans, chats, repairs, cuts grass, grows plants, hauls stuff and or fights raiders and or fires. You could use them as decoys or to draw fire. Perhaps like a shiv with suppression mounted weapon or fire suppression system. Endless options with droids and how you work them in. I'm assuming your an advanced form of terrans if your colonizing the outer rim. Either way an engineer makes perfect sense to compliment the machines.

Dear Untrustedlife you intentionally ignored my notice about the presence of engineers. (yep, they're very good at making robots) I take it for a point for me then.


And, now, to your replies:

QuoteYou need to be able to path find in real space.

It surely is easier in their 2D world, isn't it? If you wanna be realistic, be realistic.

QuoteAvoiding friendly fire. Hiding behind cover. Making tactical decisions in real time. Communicating with the colonists, to make plans.

Have you thought about the fact, that comms console also has some software protocol? And that implementing such a protocol ain't fun either?
So maybe, there may be some libraries for this. Ever heard of Open CV? That's not a sci-fi, that's reality. Set of libraries to make basic computer vision tasks super-easy.

Of course, you can deny this by another argument like "there is no internet or whatever".

But really, if you can program one thing, you can make another, it's just a matter of time. And if potatoes grow in one day, maybe an engineer will develop the system a little bit faster too.

QuoteThe player isn't really "there" so to speak.

You can control the colonists with no problems. You can control blasting charges. Why not AI. And even if you couldn't - stop being so concerned about the AI development.

Your realism starts to collide with the fun aspect of the game - and it's just because you don't like robots.
All your arguments are just make-up to make your decision rational, while it isn't. (here, I'm not saying that irrational means bad or stupid. But I'd never try to make up some logic around the music I listen to.)

I can't hear you complaining about the fact, that making a radio station with range to the orbit (of maybe much much further) is not possible for a very long time.
I can't hear you complaining that you can dispatch charges by clicking at them (oh yes, here comes the player that isn't there).
I can't hear you complaining that the turrets can so easily tell between the colonist and the enemy.

So come on. Just admit it. You don't like this idea. That all you should've said, because that's the only thing that makes sense.

Quote from: Darker on January 14, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
Dear Untrustedlife you intentionally ignored my notice about the presence of engineers. (yep, they're very good at making robots) I take it for a point for me then.


And, now, to your replies:

QuoteYou need to be able to path find in real space.

It surely is easier in their 2D world, isn't it? If you wanna be realistic, be realistic.

QuoteAvoiding friendly fire. Hiding behind cover. Making tactical decisions in real time. Communicating with the colonists, to make plans.

Have you thought about the fact, that comms console also has some software protocol? And that implementing such a protocol ain't fun either?
So maybe, there may be some libraries for this. Ever heard of Open CV? That's not a sci-fi, that's reality. Set of libraries to make basic computer vision tasks super-easy.

Of course, you can deny this by another argument like "there is no internet or whatever".

But really, if you can program one thing, you can make another, it's just a matter of time. And if potatoes grow in one day, maybe an engineer will develop the system a little bit faster too.

QuoteThe player isn't really "there" so to speak.

You can control the colonists with no problems. You can control blasting charges. Why not AI. And even if you couldn't - stop being so concerned about the AI development.

Your realism starts to collide with the fun aspect of the game - and it's just because you don't like robots.
All your arguments are just make-up to make your decision rational, while it isn't. (here, I'm not saying that irrational means bad or stupid. But I'd never try to make up some logic around the music I listen to.)

I can't hear you complaining about the fact, that making a radio station with range to the orbit (of maybe much much further) is not possible for a very long time.
I can't hear you complaining that you can dispatch charges by clicking at them (oh yes, here comes the player that isn't there).
I can't hear you complaining that the turrets can so easily tell between the colonist and the enemy.

So come on. Just admit it. You don't like this idea. That all you should've said, because that's the only thing that makes sense.

I am fine with robots if you only get them from rare traders.
I said that every single time.

You ignored my point that I made completely , i was telling the OP that you don't need to be a High tech level to build solar panels and stuff.I think building robots is out of the league of our colonists.That was what i was originally saying? How don't you get that?

also

Of course its a 2d game and pathfinding is easy in that,, easier with libraries (Yes i program , i am a programming major) , but it makes no sense that these colonists know how to make intelligent robots from scratch (in the universe of rimworld) that have "aI" which in this case means( can be controlled by the player as a soldier who isnt being remotely controlled by a colonist, and therefore has equal intelligence to the colonists, or is intelligent enough to make tactical descicians that are logical and right without the aid of a colonist) ., I'm sorry but however you try to attack my arguemnts with "its scifi robots fit" and engineers exist, engineers could also build trains, that would fit the game more actually. From a tech level perspective i don't think our colonists are at that point. Robots appear at later tech levels (it has been stated)
aliens fit in sci fi too you know, but they arent going to exist either

It just doesn't fit the tech level of our colonists, i know tynan will add them eventually he has expressed interest in machine life.

But colonists shouldn't build them they should come from traders.surely you get that?

I am enjoying this fiery discussion however.

but arguing is all about rhetoric.

maybe we can turn this into something more productive.

I will concede the fact that maybe..MAYBE after a very very long bout of research that you could theoretically build robots of higher intelligence then a auto turret. Possibly by advancing tech levels.
Perhaps, we can allow the player to advance in tech level over time.
What do you think of this?

Possibly, you would buy a robot then deconstruct it to learn how to build it?
(Well if the parts of the robot make sense to the colonists, no artificial brains connected to some strange brain reading device)
(I still don't think they would be able to comprehend the amount of programming this robot has had to go through to become so intelligent)

OP if you are reading this, please back up a page and read what I said.

Quote from: Malicar on January 14, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
I think robots make perfect sense. Like in FTL building a defense droid has it's uses but in no way replaces a human really. It compliments them when they are short on manpower for a specific role. Plus robots are just fun. Wether it cleans, chats, repairs, cuts grass, grows plants, hauls stuff and or fights raiders and or fires. You could use them as decoys or to draw fire. Perhaps like a shiv with suppression mounted weapon or fire suppression system. Endless options with droids and how you work them in. I'm assuming your an advanced form of terrans if your colonizing the outer rim. Either way an engineer makes perfect sense to compliment the machines.

Not necessarily a very advanced race of humans, you weren't actually colonizing, your transport vessel crashed on the planet ( check out the main page to see this) Plus we have medieval oafs with us. How did they get there anyway possibly being transported from their home-planet to be sold as slaves?

You aren't necessarily terrans either, but you are human, but no other inttelligence (besides that that is engineered by humanity) exists in this universe. These humans have most likely never even saw earth.

The lore talks of numerous tech levels in numerous levels of advancement.
Robotics is part of one of the higher tech levels (not the mid level, which your "colonists" are said to be at.)

Socieities tend to regress and progress, which is what makes the rimworld universe so awesome (since humans lack FTL travel but have still succesfully colonized the galaxy (at least some planets) via ships and cryo-pods that take hundreds or thousands of years to get to new solar systems), there are people who live in caves all the way up to people who have become part of a giant computer.

Also , why is it that we are limited to bullet weapons when we start then? if we were  so advanced that pistol would  be a lazer pistol or a lazer rifle (which you don't get until late-game).
Food for thought.

To be completely sincere, traders flying around transporting food and robots sounds a bit... eeeeh...

Also, not a big fan of any higher good available from traders. Then again, not a big fan of robots either :P

Look, can't you people just compromise? Buy a Robot from traders, disassemble it, copy its programming and make 5 new ones out of the materials available. They don't make a new Operating system for each and every computer. Every one that has Windows 7 has the same programming. Same thing with Droids. Copy + Paste does not require comprehension, as shown by millions of essays/papers/articles/homework in general worldwide.

You could have it fall from orbit as wreckage at some random point. You could have a trader in space selling it or maybe you even find one on the planet surface. Perhaps a roaming trader on the planet has blueprints to sell. Thing is in FTL the defense robot was unique and took up an eq slot if I remember. So naturally you would want it balanced to have just one and it would consume energy etc and have to recharge.

Would still be a nice addition. Robots are common in space exploration and travel. Just need that right balance yet still make it a viable option and still random so you don't always find or have one.

Why not a SCV from starcraft where you put a person in it? An economy version of it?

Or a mule that has a timer or deficiency rate or constant recharge(like 2 batteries per mule)

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 15, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
Why not a SCV from starcraft where you put a person in it? An economy version of it?

Or a mule that has a timer or deficiency rate or constant recharge(like 2 batteries per mule)

MULE
Great name for it. Pays homage to Danny Bunting and MULE while keeping true to the spirit of the game. Could be used to survey land among other things like remote construction of solar arrays etc. Oddly enough I can feel a bit of MULE in this game even in the pre-alpha. Not sure if that's intended but it just has that feel. Perhaps it's because it's also an rts colony building game I enjoy.

Quote from: Malicar on January 15, 2014, 04:35:11 PM
You could have it fall from orbit as wreckage at some random point. You could have a trader in space selling it or maybe you even find one on the planet surface. Perhaps a roaming trader on the planet has blueprints to sell. Thing is in FTL the defense robot was unique and took up an eq slot if I remember. So naturally you would want it balanced to have just one and it would consume energy etc and have to recharge.

Would still be a nice addition. Robots are common in space exploration and travel. Just need that right balance yet still make it a viable option and still random so you don't always find or have one.

Having it fall along with debris from the ship sounds like a great idea and a good compromise for all the opinions here.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 15, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
Why not a SCV from starcraft where you put a person in it? An economy version of it?

Or a mule that has a timer or deficiency rate or constant recharge(like 2 batteries per mule)

That's an interesting idea as well! Exosceletons are more simple in design than robots, and for a space colonies with limited man power using such equipment seems to be the most logical solution to make the most of what people you have.


So I'd like this idea; Robots are a random incident that has a chance falling with the debris from your ship. You can then rescue and repair it before it explodes due to the damage, but they have a chance of being damaged and attacking your colonists. Once you have it operational your colonists need to haul it to the charging station, which will define it's operational range due to it's limited charge and dependency on the vicinity of a recharging station.
{Edit; Basically, the robots would be multi-functional "species" that act as colonists that don't need to eat or sleep, their morale is stable, but require a lot of power and maintenance. As in they break like walls, conduits and all the equipment."}

In addition to that, a simple exoskeleton item that would act as a weapon (Colonist equipped with it can't fight) will boost their physical abilities and speed at which they perform tasks.

All that combined with rarity and high cost of maintenance and I think we are getting somewhere!

@Untrustedlife
Having done same mistake before, I would advice you to argue less and just let it slide if something doesn't sit well with you.

Please... if robots attacked colonists.... it would be unrealistic. I prefer a stupid robot that can only do things that it is programmed for.

Quote from: Pakislav on January 15, 2014, 07:01:42 PM

Quote from: Malicar on January 15, 2014, 04:35:11 PM
You could have it fall from orbit as wreckage at some random point. You could have a trader in space selling it or maybe you even find one on the planet surface. Perhaps a roaming trader on the planet has blueprints to sell. Thing is in FTL the defense robot was unique and took up an eq slot if I remember. So naturally you would want it balanced to have just one and it would consume energy etc and have to recharge.

Would still be a nice addition. Robots are common in space exploration and travel. Just need that right balance yet still make it a viable option and still random so you don't always find or have one.

Having it fall along with debris from the ship sounds like a great idea and a good compromise for all the opinions here.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 15, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
Why not a SCV from starcraft where you put a person in it? An economy version of it?

Or a mule that has a timer or deficiency rate or constant recharge(like 2 batteries per mule)

That's an interesting idea as well! Exosceletons are more simple in design than robots, and for a space colonies with limited man power using such equipment seems to be the most logical solution to make the most of what people you have.


So I'd like this idea; Robots are a random incident that has a chance falling with the debris from your ship. You can then rescue and repair it before it explodes due to the damage, but they have a chance of being damaged and attacking your colonists. Once you have it operational your colonists need to haul it to the charging station, which will define it's operational range due to it's limited charge and dependency on the vicinity of a recharging station.
{Edit; Basically, the robots would be multi-functional "species" that act as colonists that don't need to eat or sleep, their morale is stable, but require a lot of power and maintenance. As in they break like walls, conduits and all the equipment."}

In addition to that, a simple exoskeleton item that would act as a weapon (Colonist equipped with it can't fight) will boost their physical abilities and speed at which they perform tasks.

All that combined with rarity and high cost of maintenance and I think we are getting somewhere!

@Untrustedlife
Having done same mistake before, I would advice you to argue less and just let it slide if something doesn't sit well with you.

If i don't like an idea I will make it known. Everyone deserves to have there opinion noted.

I have my own opinion, as do you, I wanted to make the idea less..gamebreaking.. I made my point.
Also, the scv seems like the best option here, the reason being that I just realized that if i had an army of robots I could build, it would make the battles less tense because you are not putting colonists in danger during battle. (tension is huge part of this game, especially on cassandra classic) but if you use scvs there is a colonist at the helm.

Also they aren't as advanced as super-intelligent-sentient robots.

Rare robots (as long as they are really rare)  would work as-well.
I still prefer getting then from traders of a higher tech level, but eh.

Maybe you could get them from ruins on the planet?
That would be interesting.

The sad part is, you two spent what looks like ages arguing if colonists can build robots or not from logic standpoint, which is... completely useless and irrelevant. If game mechanics behind either implementation are sound, an explanation will be presented later ^^'

No side won, because both solutions are viable, and not a single argument was presented for one being better than another. No effect or change on gameplay presented solely by one solution was pointed out. You two kept arguing what color the car you want should be, completely forgetting to discuss if it's better to buy a truck or a mini. In the end, it does not matter what is the color of the car, if it's not fitted to serve it's purpose... ain't it?

You can limit robots or balance them as you see fit with both these approaches. Most things work out exactly the same with both of them in fact. There is just one specific difference to both approaches and neither of you found it ^^' Don't take it the wrong way - it's just human to end up in situations like this - but it's quite embarrassing really ;)

Your homework - find the difference and think how it would affect gameplay ;)

PS. Untrustedlife - your editing habits are starting to work on my nerves ^^'

Quote from: Galileus on January 16, 2014, 10:21:46 AM
The sad part is, you two spent what looks like ages arguing if colonists can build robots or not from logic standpoint, which is... completely useless and irrelevant. If game mechanics behind either implementation are sound, an explanation will be presented later ^^'

No side won, because both solutions are viable, and not a single argument was presented for one being better than another. No effect or change on gameplay presented solely by one solution was pointed out. You two kept arguing what color the car you want should be, completely forgetting to discuss if it's better to buy a truck or a mini. In the end, it does not matter what is the color of the car, if it's not fitted to serve it's purpose... ain't it?

You can limit robots or balance them as you see fit with both these approaches. Most things work out exactly the same with both of them in fact. There is just one specific difference to both approaches and neither of you found it ^^' Don't take it the wrong way - it's just human to end up in situations like this - but it's quite embarrassing really ;)

Your homework - find the difference and think how it would affect gameplay ;)

PS. Untrustedlife - your editing habits are starting to work on my nerves ^^'

Yea, i tend to edit way too much, i'll work on that  ;)

Quote from: Galileus on January 16, 2014, 10:21:46 AM
The sad part is, you two spent what looks like ages arguing if colonists can build robots or not from logic standpoint, which is... completely useless and irrelevant. If game mechanics behind either implementation are sound, an explanation will be presented later ^^'

No side won, because both solutions are viable, and not a single argument was presented for one being better than another. No effect or change on gameplay presented solely by one solution was pointed out. You two kept arguing what color the car you want should be, completely forgetting to discuss if it's better to buy a truck or a mini. In the end, it does not matter what is the color of the car, if it's not fitted to serve it's purpose... ain't it?

You can limit robots or balance them as you see fit with both these approaches. Most things work out exactly the same with both of them in fact. There is just one specific difference to both approaches and neither of you found it ^^' Don't take it the wrong way - it's just human to end up in situations like this - but it's quite embarrassing really ;)

Your homework - find the difference and think how it would affect gameplay ;)

PS. Untrustedlife - your editing habits are starting to work on my nerves ^^'

Here is a good one reason. In order to make robots less op, they will have a deficiency level or a timer depending on the developer. Each robot requires 2 batteries with full energy to be charged. There will be a small charging station for each robot to charge in. Now, here is big question. Should robots be constructed by colonists? Answer: Yes, but not completely. Each MULE, as I prefer to call, requires an A.I. chip to be made. Each A.I. chip can only come from traders or random travelers. Right now the trade system sucks, so don't give me confusing questions how to give a better solution. The MULE will then be constructed by a colonists anywhere on the map, but it will take time to do so. Also, if built outside, it has a worse quality than being built inside.

This is not a reason. This is a proposition. An idea. And not even close ;)

so, all great ideas, but why not simply say, "sure, your colonists aren't  able to build robots in the beginning, but why not say after buying, and subsequently  disassembling some robots your scientists cant reverse engineer them?" after all if we have the base technology to suggest that we can at least communicate outside of our planet, much like we can now, and have the protocols to speak with any ships systems that happen to fly by us from, let us not forget worlds that, many of them have grown up by themselves. then why can't building at least some simpler harvesting robots, or hell as has been mentioned Rolling or walking robots? And if you don't appreciate being able to reverse engineer AI, i understand that, then how come we simply cant have colonists sitting in command chairs in a cozy room? do we not already implement that tactic with predator drones? now all you need is time for some one to develop some good firm ware and the base robot.
           sorry if this thing has already been talked out and been resolved, i got done with the first page of posts got to the second page, read half way down and got bored of reading the "no your not right!" No! your not valid!" 's so i didint get done with all the posts, but there is my thoughts on it, oh and if were about to have nuclear reactors, again, why don't we have the tech for robots, after all even now on earth we almost have the tech for self driving cars down pat. (let the "your wrong you ignorant person!"s  fly!)

Quote from: Galileus on January 16, 2014, 03:31:59 PM
This is not a reason. This is a proposition. An idea. And not even close ;)

What is yours? Your in this conversation Gal, but your not participating in neither side, in fact, your just mocking both sides.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 16, 2014, 05:03:33 PMWhat is yours? Your in this conversation Gal, but your not participating in neither side, in fact, your just mocking both sides.

Now, now, can't just give out everything out on silver platter, can I? ;) Both interested sides stated their reasoning, missing anything actually game related and going on on wild fantasies with no grounding in reality. Sorry guys - that's just the case. You both are right, because both of you write sci-fi at this point, and arguing about it from that perspective is like arguing what soup is universally better tasting. Personal preference.

And yes, there is but one difference mechanically and from gameplay standpoint, that was missed in there, and I want both guys to actually try and find it. Find out what changes with each implementation. If they manage that - or at least try - they just may also figure out how such discussion should be lead, and what is a priority in it. There are a few interesting things that can roll out - and none of them will, if I just state the obvious (well... after you hear it it's obvious) and there can be no discussion in such a case.

So, the question still stands - both approaches presents different ways of explaining the origin of robots in the colony, and are distinctly different from only one gameplay mechanic. There were some mentions on how one of these (in opposition to other) will affect gameplay - but unfortunately all of them wrong :P Anyone wants a shot? ;)

....

Here is a simplified version
Durable robots you can only buy for about 15,000+ cash..
Role-Specific robots you can only buy for about 8,000+ cash.

Colonists can make their own robots, but they will never match those market bought ones in performance and costs a heap load of metal.

Each robot is what I call a MULE.
They need to be:
Charged in a docking pad attached to a power line.
Repaired constantly.

Pros: They can do human labor much faster and in larger loads.

Cons: -need to be repaired -need to be charge -noticeable deficiency over time -easily destroyed(50-200 health)
-costly

Is this good example of what a robot should be?

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 16, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
....

Here is a simplified version
Durable robots you can only buy for about 15,000+ cash..
Role-Specific robots you can only buy for about 8,000+ cash.

Colonists can make their own robots, but they will never match those market bought ones in performance and costs a heap load of metal.

Each robot is what I call a MULE.
They need to be:
Charged in a docking pad attached to a power line.
Repaired constantly.

Pros: They can do human labor much faster and in larger loads.

Cons: -need to be repaired -need to be charge -noticeable deficiency over time -easily destroyed(50-200 health)
-costly

Is this good example of what a robot should be?

I still don't like this idea.. no idea why....

Rare robots you can find in ruins.
Fully durable do everything (basically a colonist) but extremely extremely rare.

Robots that can be built are Limited to hauling (cannot build fighter bots, but can build bots to do hauling and cleaning and no miners either)

Chance of extremely rare trader that can sell you high quality robots (still limited to basic tasks, and including miners and repairers) that are harder to destroy and don't require constant maintenance, but the starter price is 15,000 money

I don't like the idea of having a colony full of robots , sorry. Doesn't fit at all in my opinion (we are on a rim-world that is basically the wild west for gods sake), but the occasional cleaner bot that breaks constantly and always tries to do a good job seems like a cute addition, you should also be able to name your robots it would be like a pet. :) .

edit:
The bot should also make occasional beep bop boop noises (you know beeps and whirls) for added cuteness

Note Trader-bought robots lack these noises and the ones you can find in ruins will always attack people if their loyalty gets really low.

Eh, robots need a special building to operate. You're limited to one building with 2 slots (frequencies), upgradeable by research. Colony full of robot is no more ;)

Quote from: Galileus on January 16, 2014, 07:18:17 PM
Eh, robots need a special building to operate. You're limited to one building with 2 slots (frequencies), upgradeable by research. Colony full of robot is no more ;)

why not have a colony full of robots, especially if a colonist has to operate it? I think that would be very possible to be a future possibility, much like the movie "surrogate".

1) We are not talking about finding robots.
2) We do not want robots that can replace colonists.
3) I'm talking about stupid robots that can only do 1 specific thing(same speed as colonists) and easily become inefficient like "Robot A broke down, efficiency decreased to 43%". These are technically substitutes for missing colonists FOR specific roles. This means you would need about 6 different robots just to fill roles for a single colonist. Hopefully, this can show you that mass producing this is like mass producing paper instead of plastic. In addition it creates a  "Oh robots will do all the damn work for me while I mine, oh wait I have to charge 100 colonist made robots, hmmm that equals 200 full charged batteries in 2 days. Oh well fuck me." kind of situation.
4)Seriously!!! GOD Damnit, we don't want any robot that can kill. It upsets the balance of the games, if you had noticed. We have sentry guns and blast charges. Do you really think we need anything more?

Raider Scout-"Okay, I've spotted a single entrance with 24 sentry turrets with double layered sand bags. It seems like a trap, sir"

Raider Commander-"Who cares, CHARGE!!!!"

Blasting Charge 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 activated.

2 minutes later, blast charges kills 56 raiders. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!
7 minutes later, sentry guns kills 76 raiders; sentry guns were destroyed in process.
3 minutes later, 4 robots with dual heavy machine guns killed the last 23 raiders. 2 robots was destroyed in the process.

Colonist 3 opens the blast door and goes wipe the blood stained windows and faints soon after.

Colonist 1 waves at Colonist 3 and call Colonist 4 to rescue her, Colonist 4 suffers a mental breakdown during the rescue,
"Oh my god that was the best reality SHOW ever! Look at that man and the freaking blood stains on the wall. You know how much they paid for this? They for it with their lives!! You get the joke?"

Colonist 2-"Yeah, I think I really fucking do. Excuse me for 1 second, I think I'm going to throw up." Colonist 2 throws up and suffered a mental breakdown after counting over 50 dead bodies.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 16, 2014, 09:15:37 PM
1) We are not talking about finding robots.
2) We do not want robots that can replace colonists.
3) I'm talking about stupid robots that can only do 1 specific thing(same speed as colonists) and easily become inefficient like "Robot A broke down, efficiency decreased to 43%". These are technically substitutes for missing colonists FOR specific roles. This means you would need about 6 different robots just to fill roles for a single colonist. Hopefully, this can show you that mass producing this is like mass producing paper instead of plastic. In addition it creates a  "Oh robots will do all the damn work for me while I mine, oh wait I have to charge 100 colonist made robots, hmmm that equals 200 full charged batteries in 2 days. Oh well fuck me." kind of situation.
4)Seriously!!! GOD Damnit, we don't want any robot that can kill. It upsets the balance of the games, if you had noticed. We have sentry guns and blast charges. Do you really think we need anything more?

Raider Scout-"Okay, I've spotted a single entrance with 24 sentry turrets with double layered sand bags. It seems like a trap, sir"

Raider Commander-"Who cares, CHARGE!!!!"

Blasting Charge 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 activated.

2 minutes later, blast charges kills 56 raiders. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!
7 minutes later, sentry guns kills 76 raiders; sentry guns were destroyed in process.
3 minutes later, 4 robots with dual heavy machine guns killed the last 23 raiders. 2 robots was destroyed in the process.

Colonist 3 opens the blast door and goes wipe the blood stained windows and faints soon after.

Colonist 1 waves at Colonist 3 and call Colonist 4 to rescue her, Colonist 4 suffers a mental breakdown during the rescue,
"Oh my god that was the best reality SHOW ever! Look at that man and the freaking blood stains on the wall. You know how much they paid for this? They for it with their lives!! You get the joke?"

Colonist 2-"Yeah, I think I really fucking do. Excuse me for 1 second, I think I'm going to throw up." Colonist 2 throws up and suffered a mental breakdown after counting over 50 dead bodies.

Agreed Mostly. But I have an improvement, that will make your idea better (in my opinion).
(and i do want a special rare type you can find cause finding a very rare "robot" is fun)

Bear with me :) The first type doesn't need to be added.

Run down of my idea.

My idea has 3 classes of robots ( All the classes are completely different and they are gotten in different ways.)

I (This one is just sort of a side idea)
. A very rare one you find in the ruins of an ancient civilization that does replace a colonist (yes tynan is adding ruins later on)(It is basically the same exact thing as a colonist) nothing special, just a reskinned colonist with randomized skills, just like any other colonist. (perhaps they are always skilled at one kind of job, (that specific skill will be a 7 instead of a 3)

II (These are the ones I know I want, and these are the ones you want, but done slightly differently)
Robots you build, they are limited to only a single job and can only do hauling,cleaning,repairing (one of the three) and make cute beep boop noises (and break down constantly), and you can name them.And the colonists get a morale boost from hanging around these cute little guys. (I want the player to get just as attached to this robot as they are to their colonists)

III (The ones you can buy)
Robots you can buy, for very expensive, they are hiqh quality don't require as much maintenance and can do only one job, but this job can be any job except fighting. (they are less "cute" as the crappy robots your colonists build as-well (and as-such don't give as much of a morale boost), and do not make beeping noises, and cannot be named by you (they have a random name when you trade for them)).The player shouldn't get attached to these ones. (this way the player has incentive to keep his own colonist-built robots even if they suck, because the player actually cares about the robots he built.)

I believe having a variety and having robots that you WILL get attached to, will help to make the procedural stories, just that much more exciting memorable and interesting.


What do you think?

Also if you want a more in depth look, i just basically rewrote my previous post  (that post has more info)

I think you're overestimating the cuteness or underestimating the depth ;) Player gets attached to colonists because they are breathing, fighting, working figures with a bit of story both from the lore and from the gameplay standpoint. Your drones not only have a huge disadvantage here - doing one thing and being drones - but as a buildable unit they are rather expendable by nature.

Also, there is still this one huge, gaping hole I can't get over - if we can build robots, sell robots, buy robots, bathe in robots and consume robots from the lack of different food... why does rim worlds exist again? Ain't the idea of manual labor and need to rely more on oneselves than on technology the very core of Rimworld/Firefly?

I believe that if the player gets to name the bot, if the bot feels like it has personality. (and just plain being cute, and being limited severely in the jobs they can do) (literally only 3 of the jobs hauling ,cleaning, repairing), and can only be assigned to one job (when they are built) the player will come to attach to the robot, especially if they are still extremely expensive to make and maintain and to keep) (and are therefore extremely hard to replace)


However what you said is true.
Robots don't really fit the game.

Actually it could, but you need to realize this very crucial aspect - robots (or drones or any other name that sounds better than robots ;)) can't really be a boon of any sort to colonists. If the drones are simply not worth it (too costly, too slow, too bad), then not only they can actually work as that cutesy element, but also provide a choice to get rid of the busywork (like repairs) at the cost of efficiency. That leaves drones from in-game standpoint completely useless, because the profit is "out of the game" - available only to player.

This could be very easily reflected by in game description, with something like: "Drones are not a popular choice in the rim, as they are too costly for the quality of work they provide. It's simply faster and cheaper to just do all the work yourself - and yet you can find drones every now and again, owned by people that are both too rich and too lazy to care about bothersome things like work or efficiency".

Here is what i'm talking about by the way....

Search MULE Starcraft 2. You can also search SCV if you want.

Once you have viewed it, you will know why this is the most cool looking robot ever.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 17, 2014, 02:45:57 PM
Here is what i'm talking about by the way....

Search MULE Starcraft 2. You can also search SCV if you want.

Once you have viewed it, you will know why this is the most cool looking robot ever.

We call them mule(M.U.L.E (that would be neat))
I shall show you a  screenshot of the first M.U.L.E


[(http://jayisgames.com/images/mulebox_lg.jpg)
They should look like that.
(joking)

In all seriosuness though
I think that they should be tiny like this guy:
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp2LGUTWmFobxUx4deoNHQTmvHvi9othsMRMQSXPyp19Fyat8m) (officer beepsky from spacestation 13) the only difference is that it should be more rusty looking

Eh Eh Eh Eh... I really have no comment for that...... I mean.... M.U.L.E. from starcraft still looks so much better. Nevertheless perfectly fitting in rimworld if converted to pixels.

I, for one, am not a big fan of MULE, neither name nor design.

Gal.... stop mocking us...  :'(

What, I can't dislike it? ;/

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 17, 2014, 09:40:42 PM
Gal.... stop mocking us...  :'(

Come on now
Galileus and I were having a great discussion on the last page.

Mule does look good, and as long as it is tiny i t would still fit. I just prefer beepsky :P

the literal robotic mule was my attempt at  a joke. I actually love starcraft.

I think what me and Galileus brainstormed on the last page should be what "drones" In this case would be added to the game. We just need some art now.

Hmmm, drones. I've thought about it, but what kind of difference you are suggesting? They are basically robots with much more specific tasks or just smaller size.

By the way, on the M.U.L.E. part, i think we should add a research that involves the construction of an A.I. Command Center. Where you can only have so much robots. So........ I don't know how to make this even more balanced, but eventually we will have A.I. nevertheless.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 18, 2014, 12:23:48 AMBy the way, on the M.U.L.E. part, i think we should add a research that involves the construction of an A.I. Command Center. Where you can only have so much robots.

Quote from: Galileus on January 16, 2014, 07:18:17 PM
Eh, robots need a special building to operate. You're limited to one building with 2 slots (frequencies), upgradeable by research. Colony full of robot is no more ;)

I don't like artificial limits.

It would be better if the limitation was economic, by making up-keeping too many robots take more work than they are worth.
A charging station I suggested - which take a lot of energy and space, holds only one robot and needs to be used regularly, would be enough of a limitation I would think.

Quote from: Pakislav on January 18, 2014, 08:01:14 AMA charging station I suggested - which take a lot of energy and space, holds only one robot and needs to be used regularly, would be enough of a limitation I would think.

If it's linear it wouldn't be a limitation ;)
If it wasn't... let's say charging a slot (station) in a charging station with n active slots for drones takes X^(1+(N-1)*0.3) hours to complete. Let's say X is 5h and drones can work for 5h without charging. This means:

With 1 drone, it can work non-stop (5h charging, 5h work - so new battery is ready when it needs to recharge), which means 100% efficiency.
With 2 drones, loading of each battery takes 8h. Each drone can work with 62,5% efficiency, overall 125% efficiency of single drone. A drone rolls out every 4h and there is no down-time.
With 3 drones, loading of each battery takes 13h. Each drone can work with 38% efficiency, overall  115% efficiency of single drone. A drone rolls out every 4,3h. And there is no down-time.
With 4 drones, loading of each battery takes 21h. Each drone can work with 24% efficiency, overall 95% efficiency of a single drone. A drone rolls out every 5,25h, there is a 0,25h of down-time
With 10 drones, loading of each battery takes 385h. Each drone can work with 1,3% efficiency, overall 13% efficiency of a single drone. A drone rolls out every 38,5h, there is a 33,5h of down-time.

Now, what is cute with this example is how elastic it is. You want to get rid of busywork and have constant monitoring by drones? You're best off with 2, max 3 drones. But it doesn't mean getting them 10 drones is not an option - of course, your monitoring will be absolutely awful as there is more time when no drones are on the field than when they actually work. But if you switch charging station to release drones manually (I assume auto would be with best coverage in mind), you can get 10 drones in the field at once per every 16 days. And it would be absolutely amazing to have that ability right after a raid, where you know another group is already staging for an attack.

Damn, I'm actually pretty happy with that solution :D

Gal.. then that means drones would be useless in a larger colony.

Useless? Hardly. It's still an additional pair of hands. Or ten pairs when you need em. And even 3 drones when you have 20 colonists make a huge difference.

Able to replace colonists? Nope. Exactly :)

I'm talking about populations up to 30. Those drones would be useless, it would be more like a 1 time use if it takes a long time to be use again and at a really bad efficiency(even though it is better than 1 robot).

There are no populations of up to 30 in RimWorld.

And even with 30 colonists, 3 drones are a 10% increase in hands on the field. Or ability to unleash massive repair waves every now and again.

Also, what bad efficiency?

You just pointed out the problem, it is a once in a long time use.

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 18, 2014, 11:31:37 AM
You just pointed out the problem, it is a once in a long time use.

No it's not! It's either a once-in-a-while ability to have massive boost OR a constant boost of considerably lower magnitude. I've mentioned that in all of my 3 posts, not to mention this was precisely outlined in my breakdown.

Do you even have a problem with this formula, or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? :/ Because you know, if you just want unlimited drones, it's fine. It doesn't mean other suggestions need to be flawed. And so far you throw some imagined problem at me every post, never sticking to one idea and throwing another ridiculous "problem" out as soon as I address the last one. So, please, either formulate your points well and think what you write, or stop "contributing" :/

Quote from: Galileus on January 18, 2014, 09:05:48 AM

Quote from: Pakislav on January 18, 2014, 08:01:14 AMA charging station I suggested - which take a lot of energy and space, holds only one robot and needs to be used regularly, would be enough of a limitation I would think.

If it's linear it wouldn't be a limitation ;)
If it wasn't... let's say charging a slot (station) in a charging station with n active slots for drones takes X^(1+(N-1)*0.3) hours to complete. Let's say X is 5h and drones can work for 5h without charging. This means:

With 1 drone, it can work non-stop (5h charging, 5h work - so new battery is ready when it needs to recharge), which means 100% efficiency.
With 2 drones, loading of each battery takes 8h. Each drone can work with 62,5% efficiency, overall 125% efficiency of single drone. A drone rolls out every 4h and there is no down-time.
With 3 drones, loading of each battery takes 13h. Each drone can work with 38% efficiency, overall  115% efficiency of single drone. A drone rolls out every 4,3h. And there is no down-time.
With 4 drones, loading of each battery takes 21h. Each drone can work with 24% efficiency, overall 95% efficiency of a single drone. A drone rolls out every 5,25h, there is a 0,25h of down-time
With 10 drones, loading of each battery takes 385h. Each drone can work with 1,3% efficiency, overall 13% efficiency of a single drone. A drone rolls out every 38,5h, there is a 33,5h of down-time.

Now, what is cute with this example is how elastic it is. You want to get rid of busywork and have constant monitoring by drones? You're best off with 2, max 3 drones. But it doesn't mean getting them 10 drones is not an option - of course, your monitoring will be absolutely awful as there is more time when no drones are on the field than when they actually work. But if you switch charging station to release drones manually (I assume auto would be with best coverage in mind), you can get 10 drones in the field at once per every 16 days. And it would be absolutely amazing to have that ability right after a raid, where you know another group is already staging for an attack.

Damn, I'm actually pretty happy with that solution :D

so, i quite like the formula, andit works pretty well, yet you seem to be suggesting, that we can only have one charging station, (correct me if im wrong) so whats to stop you from having multiple charging stations? which then eliminates all the complaining about "once in a while uses oof large amounts of drones" with multiple charging stations, it simply gets better, in my opinion our society is already starting to replace humans with robots in many jobs, but yet jobs will still go up at the same rate for humans, just different types of jobs. now with 20 robots, your colonists are simply doing different jobs, they are all now maintenance personnel for the robots, letting the robots do the 'dirty work' and the colonists be safe and sound behind the walls.

I don't like the idea of doubling population in robots. Mostly because it creates a meta in which you MUST use robots. And that is ugly ;)

It all depends on what you want to allow robots to do. If it's only repairs, then sure - 20 works fine, you just adjust your numbers in the formula and you have max efficiency around 15. If they are able to build, harvest or mine however, 20 is way too much - even if robots would be half as good at these tasks, this is still 50% increase in ability to build and leads to problems with balance - forcing you to balance for scenario in which player can field ~40 drones if you want to design a costly building. And this means you would force players to use robots. It is possible, but I really dislike that option. And then comes the whole vector of rimworlds not depending hugely on technology - being able to leave too much work for robots or drones would go against the feel of the game in my opinion.

But this is all on paper, obviously - in the end more = less ;) Well, literally. More robots is the same as less robots until you decide on their work speed and cost. I would prefer less robots with better stats - it's not only easier on AI, but also makes every single robot more valuable and allows for better control of amount of robots player can possibly field (in the formula, the larger is your max efficiency number, the bigger is standard deviation you need to calculate for). You can still go for many smaller robots to the same effect - idea of charging stations being dependent on number of slots used still works it's magic in soft-capping it.

As for the amount of charging stations themselves, I would actually go for one station = one charging slot; with amount of active slots counted globally (as they still drain from global power pool). There is also a possibility to play around with it as research. For example, you would have three separate research paths, two research items deep each, that exclude each other. You start with lvl 1 of efficiency, size or capacity upgrade and would have to choose one:
- efficiency would lower the amount of slots actually counted by 10% at lvl1 and 20% at lvl2 (so instead of 10 slot used, game would see 9 on lvl1 or 8 on lvl2)
- size would allow to build bigger stations, able to service more drones (so from 1x2 with one drone to 1x2 with 2 drones on lvl1 and 2x2 with 6 drones on lvl2)
- capacity would increase the capacity of batteries by 10% on lvl1 and 20% on lvl2 (from 5h of work to 5,5h on lvl1 and 6h on lvl2)

Quote from: Trensicourt on January 18, 2014, 12:23:48 AM
Hmmm, drones. I've thought about it, but what kind of difference you are suggesting? They are basically robots with much more specific tasks or just smaller size.

By the way, on the M.U.L.E. part, i think we should add a research that involves the construction of an A.I. Command Center. Where you can only have so much robots. So........ I don't know how to make this even more balanced, but eventually we will have A.I. nevertheless.

A command center?

I still think what me and galileus came up with is the best most fitting option for this game. This game is more about  the story .


Here is what me and gallileus came up with

Drones are limited, small (and we want it this way) no big powerful robots, but the player should come to attach to them and they will work as that cutesy element. They will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency, read page 3 of this thread to get the rest of the info, here are a few highlights.

Quote
I believe that if the player gets to name the bot, if the bot feels like it has personality. (and just plain being cute, and being limited severely in the jobs they can do) (literally only 3 of the jobs hauling ,cleaning, repairing), and can only be assigned to one job (when they are built) the player will come to attach to the robot, especially if they are still extremely expensive to make and maintain and to keep) (and are therefore extremely hard to replace)

Quote
Actually it could, but you need to realize this very crucial aspect - robots (or drones or any other name that sounds better than robots ;)) can't really be a boon of any sort to colonists. If the drones are simply not worth it (too costly, too slow, too bad), then not only they can actually work as that cutesy element, but also provide a choice to get rid of the busywork (like repairs) at the cost of efficiency. That leaves drones from in-game standpoint completely useless, because the profit is "out of the game" - available only to player.

This could be very easily reflected by in game description, with something like: "Drones are not a popular choice in the rim, as they are too costly for the quality of work they provide. It's simply faster and cheaper to just do all the work yourself - and yet you can find drones every now and again, owned by people that are both too rich and too lazy to care about bothersome things like work or efficiency".

Gallileus mentioned as-well that having a colony full of robots doing all of the work does not fit this games style.


Note that:

Quote
Also, there is still this one huge, gaping hole I can't get over - if we can build robots, sell robots, buy robots, bathe in robots and consume robots from the lack of different food... why does rim worlds exist again? Ain't the idea of manual labor and need to rely more on oneselves than on technology the very core of Rimworld/Firefly?

I agree with him.



They should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.
This is the colonists job. And it makes sure colonists are still extremely important and the tension of the game is still there, to successfully fight raiders you have to put colonists in danger. Otherwise there is no tension, which this game relies heavily on, especially with cassandra classic.

This game, is about hard work, having robots do all the work goes against the wild west type spirit of this game.

Being unable to have a colony full of robots, keeps robots /colonists important and makes the drones a thing the player can connect to. Like a colonist.

Drones will also give happiness boost to the colonists (the drones in this case are treated like pets, who do work for you as-well.

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 18, 2014, 03:33:29 PMThey will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency

QuoteThey should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.

So the colonists can mass-produce Roombas?

I don't know why I haven't thought of it before, but I know perfect reference for how drones should look like ;)

Dwarf Gekkos (http://youtu.be/lmxmGsbSXSg?t=23s) from MGR-R!

This guys are uber-cute, their design allows for amazing amount of emotions and... well... dancing..., their voices are extremely cute and until you get to certain VR missions in  which you learn to completely HATE EVERY ONE OF THESE BASTARDS!!!!!1111156345hax

Sorry... so, so sorry...

Quote from: kdfsjljklgjfg on January 18, 2014, 03:48:09 PM

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 18, 2014, 03:33:29 PMThey will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency

QuoteThey should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.

So the colonists can mass-produce Roombas?

Roombas?

The drones would be expensive to maintain charge and build, no reason to mass produce them unless you have a ridiculous amount of resources in which case, yes.

Of course RimWorld version would need to be properly clunky :D

... and not look like a headcrap ^^ Shuddap, I did it in 10 minutes!

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 18, 2014, 05:04:28 PMThe drones would be expensive to maintain charge and build, no reason to mass produce them unless you have a ridiculous amount of resources in which case, yes.

That's what I love about The Formula. The Formula gives you the ability to mass-build the headcrabs, I mean the dwarf gekkos, I mean drones; but at the same the more you have - the less of a constant boost they are and more of a timed ability. The limit exists not in lack of ability to build more, but in their dynamic - more roombas darn it! drones behave differently to low, max efficiency amount of drones.

[attachment deleted by admin: too old]

Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

The design rationale had several parts.

First, it lets you expand the colony without adding more people. I've always wanted to keep a smaller cast of characters. But when you're limited to 12 people, it can be hard to have the enjoyable experience of growing a really big colony. But if that numerical growth is achieved largely by robots, you can have a big bustling wealthy colony while not overloading it with a hundred characters who players won't know individually.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

The other reason is because it creates some strategy and variation in your capacities for work and fighting. Like a more extreme version of the work limitations on colonists. You could end up with configurations of robots that give the colony different advantages and disadvantages and add variation that way.

Also, combat robots can add all sorts of arbitrary variations to fights. Especially if they're randomized like DF forgotten beasts.

As for the graphics, I'm afraid they'd have to be 2D, vectorized, tiny, and lacking legs (because RW doesn't animate characters).

And no reason you couldn't name them :D Though I think the game might generate names for them.

Huh, so my whole reasoning behind robot limitation was wrong. Well, is human to err.

Then again, lack of dancing cute robots is a horrible design decision. Dancing robots are foundation of any cultured society and an expectation, I even believe few presidents won their campaigns by promising dancing robots. Horrible, much disappoint! ;)

Quote from: Tynan on January 20, 2014, 11:38:17 PM
Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

Sweet! i love the ability to, eventually have such diverse ways of playing RW. its extremely intriguing.

QuoteYou think a robot would be easier to build then a solar panel and a food dispenser?

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser that simply squashes things and dispenses the squashed stuff (which i bet is what the "nutrient paste" dispenser does.. It is also beyond the bits of silicone needed to make a solar panel. And the AI is beyond that of an auto turret.

It depends on the robot.

A cleaning robot like we already have in real life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6EsI4BFHFk) would be pretty simple.

I mean, honestly, I can build something like that with lego. (except for the vacuum part) :).

I actually built more advanced robots then that in lego.

QuoteBecause it is alot more then just a "walking autoturret"

How?

Our current ingame turrets are already capable to differ between friend and enemies.

QuoteThen why is it that modern humanity has turrets that can acquire targets, but not robots that run around shooting and acquiring targets?

You need to be able to path find in real space. This can be done, requires years upon years upon years of research, not to mention allowing them to have orders to stay around and patrol.Avoiding friendly fire.

We already have prototypes of automatic cars driving in the real world, in real streets with other cars. They are able to avoid deers and other obstacles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J17Qgc4a8xY

What do you guess will be possible in another 10 years?

It will take more then 10 years till we are able to colonize space, what do you guess we will be capable of by then?

Rimworld plays in a future were we are already trading in space! So, in a future were we already have colonized space and have space trading fleets.

We are currently building driverless cars, there's a fair chance that we live long enough to see the automation of traffic in the real world, but we definitely wont live long enough to see space trading, just to give an small vision of how advanced robotics will probably be in the era of rimworld.

The turrets they build in rimworld aren't just able to shoot at someone they see, they're also perfectly able to differ between friends and enemies and aim properly. That is amazing, you already need some highly advanced artificial intelligence to do that. You know, we have face detection for cameras and they tend to make mistakes, sometimes not detecting a face or detecting one where there isn't one. But the AI of the turrets? They detect people, even in the dark, and they can differ them, can even detect if they are a threat! And they never make a single mistake.

Not even that, they are even capable of finding out when an enemy is unable to fight! They can freaking differ between enemies standing still and an enemy that passed out by pain or blood loss, thats something that not even humans are able to do. (not in the middle of a fight and meters away)

And they didn't made this in a laboratory, they made it in the desert! In a single day!!! A single person! What could two of them build together in a week?



If you are still worried about path finding, we could make it so that robots will only be able to move in flat terrain / metal underground, in that case they don't have to deal with bypassing plants or bigger stones.

Making a robot on wheels move on a flat surface and avoid colliding into walls is pretty easy (honestly, you can do that with a lego robot kit and some basic programming...)

As turrets are already capable of aiming at enemies, all you need to do is to let them drive into the direction it aims, thats pretty easy too.

Making them seek cover or others advanced strategies is a whole other story. (i personally believe that by the time we do space trading AI will be smart enough to do so)

Its more complicated in real life scenarios, for example a robot shouldn't hurt civilians and enemies might hide in houses or behind civilians etc. and no Ai is currently smart enough to deal with that. But such things are irrelevant in rimworld.

Also, Tynan could make robotos purposely dumb or make mistakes, or falling over at times...

Edit:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/10q9d6p.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkrzdj9tA2I

humanoid robots playing football. Take note that these are basically toys made for fun. Yes, they are clumsy and slow, but in the next 20 years...?


Take a look at this one:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/219zbb9.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

This one is not a toy, its a 4 legged robot capable to move on ice, snow and debris, run uphills etc.

Again, this is what we have today. Actually, that video is 6 years old, its what we had 6 years ago. Rimworld takes place in far future.

DFPLAYER read the whole conversation before replying to me.
Its all been cleared up already.

Tynan chimed in and said:

Quote
Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

The design rationale had several parts.

First, it lets you expand the colony without adding more people. I've always wanted to keep a smaller cast of characters. But when you're limited to 12 people, it can be hard to have the enjoyable experience of growing a really big colony. But if that numerical growth is achieved largely by robots, you can have a big bustling wealthy colony while not overloading it with a hundred characters who players won't know individually.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

The other reason is because it creates some strategy and variation in your capacities for work and fighting. Like a more extreme version of the work limitations on colonists. You could end up with configurations of robots that give the colony different advantages and disadvantages and add variation that way.

Also, combat robots can add all sorts of arbitrary variations to fights. Especially if they're randomized like DF forgotten beasts.

As for the graphics, I'm afraid they'd have to be 2D, vectorized, tiny, and lacking legs (because RW doesn't animate characters).

And no reason you couldn't name them :D Though I think the game might generate names for them.

please delete your post so that people realize the argument has been over for days.


Also note that faster then light travel and giant trade fleets don't exist in the rim verse.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

And note that due to the "Gulf between stars"
So some haven't even reached OUR tech level.
Or have completely weird tech levels where they know certain things but not others.

I hate it wen people try to continue arguments when they have been over with for days.

Quote from: Untrustedlife on January 21, 2014, 03:10:53 PM
DFPLAYER read the whole conversation before replying to me.
Its all been cleared up already.

I did. It stopped when you said that you think its gamebreaking and unrealistic, and this is your opinion and thats it.

I say its not even slightly unrealistic, its something we will do in the next 50 years, maybe in the next 100 years. (imho thats a modest estimate)

QuoteTynan chimed in and said:

Yes, im not arguing if they should be part of the game, but if it were realistic.

Just because something is realistic or unrealistic doesn't mean its fun or not gameplay wise.

Quoteplease delete your post so that people realize the argument has been over for days.

No, the topic of this thread is "automated units", discussing if it is realistic that colonists are cappable of building them is a valid discussion under this topic. Its not Off-Topic.

That Tynan wants to include them in the game or that you don't want to defend your opinion anymore doesn't change that.

If you don't want to discuss this anymore, thats fine. This Forum is public and other who read this may also think that its unrealistic or want to discuss this, i just wanted to state that we will probably be capable of buildings such robots loooong before we will be able to trade in space.

QuoteAlso note that faster then light travel and giant trade fleets don't exist in the rim verse.

Still, a space trading ship and space combat is something that is far away.

You can't trade in space if there aren't enough people in space to trade with.

Ingame we are stranded in a rimworld, still there are many travelers, raiders and space ships coming by. It seems like a huge part of humans does already live outside of earth. Actually, i believe that by colonizing the galactic core, there are more people living outside one earth then on earth. (there are multiple space ships flying by in a single year, space is freaking huge and we live on the rim, that wouldn't happen if there weren't quite a lot of trading ships...)

Currently, its a huge success to send a probe to mars!

Its not just sending people into space, but to the core of  the galaxy, and so many that they are independent and have a running economy, colonizing other planets.

These people are there for multiple generations of human life, especially if we can't fly faster then light.

An AI that is slightly smarter then our current AIs in reallife is nothing against that.

QuoteAnd note that due to the "Gulf between stars"
So some haven't even reached OUR tech level.

We live in a rim world of the galactic core, beside of slaves, everyone who visits us does at least have the technology to travel in space. For a long distance.

Maybe they just captured a ship, but they are versed enough to fly it and keep it in a good state.

And so do our first three colonists if at least on of them was flying or even owning the spacecraft that crashed. Or had any job on the spacecraft.

So, everyone who voluntary visits us is in possession of technology far beyond ours. (a space ship. A space ship thats capable to provide enough food, room and oxygen to fly to the rim of the galactic core.)

Actually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

also
The rim isnt in the galactic core good sir.

The rimworld is a RIMWORLD.
Away from large populations, yes, sure people are visiting us in spaceships, but many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

actually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

Thee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

You should read the ENTIRE THING, but i will quote a portion of it to point out that your concept of rimworlds is flawed.

Quote
In this universe, cultures do not always progress forward technologically the way many science fiction worlds assume they will. Often, a culture will blow itself up or suffer plagues and other great catastrophes. These regression events send them “back to the stone age”.
Because this happens regularly, people in the RimWorld universe come from extremely varied technology levels. Some are stone-age tribespeople. Some are medieval farmers and lords. Some are industrial-era politicans and bankers and riflemen. Some are information-age programmers or astronauts. And some are from eras beyond our own.
There is a maximum level of technology to the people you might encounter in RimWorld. At this level, advanced genetic engineering and AI, autonomous intelligent robots, and massive computer power are possible. However, worlds that develop beyond this point enter a mysterious “transcendent” state from which no recognizable human emerges.
People can have and use technologies from levels beyond their own. On an industrial-level world (like the rimworld on which the game takes place), most people use gunpowder-fired weapons, fossil fuel engines, and other familiar machines. But anyone can stumble upon ultra-advanced technologies in an ancient ruin, or in a crashed spacecraft, or among the wares of a trader. These items are nearly impossible to manufacture for the people of RimWorld. They are incredibly valuable and very poorly understood.
World types
Worlds in the RimWorld universe can be classified generally according to their level of sociotechnological development.
Animal worlds - Planets with no people. Either everyone died, or the planet was seeded by terraforming robots and nobody arrived.
Tribe worlds - Populated planets without agriculture. People live in tribes without writing or any but the most primitive technologies.
Medieval worlds - Similar to Earth in the 17th century down to the agricultural revolution. Dominated be feudalism and social backwardness. Planets can stay in this state for millennia.
Industrial worlds - Similar to Earth in the 19th century.
Rimworlds - Distant and isolated planets lacking in strong central government and low in population density. These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower. Because they’re not homogenized by a central government, they tend to see a lot of interaction between people of different technology levels, as travelers crashland or ancient closed valut communities open up.
Midworlds - The most familiar kind of world to a modern reader. These places are much like present-day Earth.
Urbworlds - Super-high density planets dominated by cities. Their population growth outstripped their sociotechnological development, so they tend to be overcrowded, polluted, violent places.
Glitterworlds - Very advanced and peaceful cultures. The peak of recognizable human society in terms of health, art, technology, and human rights.
Toxic worlds - Worlds destroyed by pollution or warfare, but still inhabitable at a low level.
Marbles - Worlds utterly destroyed by atomic fire. They’re called marbles because their surfaces have been “glassed”. This level of holocaust is rare. On some of these worlds, people can walk outdoors for a time without dying. None of them harbor life long-term.
Transcendent worlds - Worlds inhabited by people who have become something beyond human and unknowable. No “people” live here; these planets aren’t planets any more in the traditional sense; they’re more like giant computers.

QuoteActually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

But the conversation about whether or not its realistic stopped. Afterwards started a new conversation.

One of the disadvantages of a bulletin board is that posts are sorted in chronological order instead of their thematic, but i can't change that.

Its still a valid discussion under the main topic of this thread.

Quoteactually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

I did, i can't see why you'd think otherwise.

But it seems like you never questioned what you read.

Quotebut many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.

Guess why i said that everyone who is VISITING us has the technology of space travel and, more important, our first three colonists do! I never said everyone has, just the people visiting us and our three starting colonists.

Except all these people visiting us lived their whole life on the planet we stranded on. (However, there are event's about people crashlanding on our rimworld and im sure that raiders will attack with energy weapons at some point.)

QuoteThee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

I say its simply because of gameplay and style (like steampunk, its a cool but unrealistic mix of modern and middle age).

Realistically it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

People that can travel in space definitely wouldn't rely on middle age weapons.

I mean, honestly, come on.

A space ship flying trough space, to a rimworld far away from civilization, to sell you gunpowder weapons of the last millennium?! Does this sound like an economic business model for you? They have higher costs for fuel then what these primitives could offer you. If these ships can't travel faster then light, how much profit will you make by traveling for some hundred of years to sell freaking gunpowder weapons?!

Even sending these weapons via some kind of torpedos to a definite location on a rimworld (making sure that they don't get destroyed by entering atmosphere or landing impact!!!!) is more expensive then anything a primitive colony could offer these weapon dealers. (and, again, the technology for doing so is more advanced then anything we have today.)

And what do we sell these gun dealers? Pistols and selfmade nutrient paste... Wow, thats definitely a good deal for them! They own high tech of the next millennial and trade pistols with pistols... Also I guess that if they are capable of traveling for hundred of years they made sure that they won't suffer by starvation at any point, and they give you far more for pistols then for nutrient paste, so it's not like they desperately need our nutrient paste.

If we had anything useful to offer them, why shouldn't these slave traders simply jump down to our colony and kill us all with some advanced weapons and then take whatever they need? Or at least try to threaten and gouge us?

You know, even a modern helicopter gunship from our current realworld could easily conquer and destroy our little colony without damaging the stockpiles.That kind of helicopter that has mounted multiple rockets with a range of multiple kilometers could easily deal with our turrets. Or some remote controlled attack drones the us uses in 2014.

Or how about gas attacks? Or Radiation? Everything could be looted afterwards. If the colonists have to rely on pistols, it shouldn't be much of a problem to kill them and take whatever these primitives could offer you. The colonists are usually armed with nothing more then a handful of pistols when the first slave or weapon trader arrives.

It simply doesn't make sense, if you managed to own a spacecraft more advanced then anything we could build in the next hundred of years, it shouldn't be much of a problem to gather a gunship or attack drones from 2014.

If there are people building these spacecrafts, it shouldn't be much of a problem for these people to build some weapons from 2014. Not just rifles but bombs, gunships, atomic weapons, lethal gas bombs ....

Flying light years (!) trough space to sell gunpowder weapons is ridiculous. But its fun Gameplay wise. Having Energy rifles that could shoot over the complete map without missing would suck and no one would want that, no matter if it is realistic.

Edit:

QuoteThese places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower.

Yea, these automatic turrets are quite beyond industrial technology, so is the mining equipment of our colonists. And the spaceship they crashlanded with.

Or the communication technology to contact spaceships from far away. Its not a satellite, its something they built in the desert. In a single day. They didn't even needed the research lab for it. Its not even big. And doesn't need that much energy - 200 watt. 50 watt more then a standing lamp.

Its never told how far away these trading ships are, but i believe that they don't orbit the rimworld - planet and just fly somewhat nearby. Except they really want to trade pistols with primitives or there is indeed some advanced city on our planet that would justify to spent fuel and time to get into orbit and leave it afterwards...

They can build a communication device for space (that also detects spacecrafts) that doesn't need much more energy then a lamp and is quite small, on a desert.

The only thing that is industrial tech are the weapons and some buildings like solar panels, beds and lamps.

Oh, and the doors don't look like industrial tech either.

And i'm quite sure that the drones we'll built at some point in the game will most likely be equipped with industrial tech weapons too, no matter if this would be realistic :).

DFplayer - I seriously skipped through your text-wall, not bothering to read, because:

A) Native Americans used gunpowder based weaponry with much success.
B) Games are not made to be realistic, because they would be boring.
C) A door-to-door salesman could very easily chop people with a fireaxe without much fail, and it doesn't seem unrealistic to me that it doesn't happen constantly.
D) A medium sized company can easily buy a big car or even a boat or a plane, but getting a armed sloop of war or even an outdated rocket launcher is not so easy of an deal, not to mention getting armed and fight-capable armored vehicle.

All in all, your reasoning is - ironically, seeing how you keep saying "unrealistic" - rather shallow and unrealistic ^^'

QuoteA) Native Americans used gunpowder based weaponry with much success.

But not against gunships or remote controlled military drones, right? And not just 3 or 15 of them.

QuoteB) Games are not made to be realistic, because they would be boring.

That was actually one of my arguments. Well, you haven't read it.

QuoteD) A medium sized company can easily buy a big car or even a boat or a plane, but getting a armed sloop of war or even an outdated rocket launcher is not so easy of an deal, not to mention getting armed and fight-capable armored vehicle.

They still should be able to get something better then the last millennial.

We are talking about slave traders and weapon dealers without morals and its said that for most planets the government failed.

Like, they already have some kind of torpedos to throw their trading items and slaves safely to the surface of a planet with a very high accuracy, right?

Why not fire triggered (gas-) bombs with these torpedos?

QuoteAll in all, your reasoning is - ironically, seeing how you keep saying "unrealistic" - rather shallow and unrealistic ^^'

Im argumenting against the fact that smart robots would be unrealistic in the game.

Saying that games are not meant to be realistic is an counter argument against that, and its a argument i used myself.

i never said that rimworld has to be realistic, in my first posts i just said that robots wouldn't actually be unrealistic, in my last post i stated that this game has already a lot of unrealistic (anachronistic) content.

Sorry for misunderstanding, then. Seriously, your posts are so long and there's so much circling in them, you can't blame me for skipping through. Especially when you tend to make points about... well, pretty much whatever, it's rather hard to read through it.

To be sincere, I'm completely lost what your point is and where do you get your info from. How do you know how slavery works (it can very well be a legal trade scenario), how traders pick up cargo (a shuttle (!) completely negates your argument), what gunships have to do with Native Americans (they weren't around, right?), what would slavers eat if they can't trade (who would trade with someone who has no morale and is likely to take your money and you as a cargo?), and, once again, what actually does all of that have to do with whatever it is your point is ^^'

I should leave this topic until this stabilizes. I mean - it is <insert creator's opinion and gameplay reasons here> that smart robots exist in that universe. So yeah...

PS. To be fair, I point out at you unfairly here, this whole discussion got very convoluted and kind of ridiculous, with all of it's participants going circles ^^'

Quotewhat gunships have to do with Native Americans (they weren't around, right?)

you tell me, you brought native americans up, not me. :)

You said they had succes with low tech, i said that we had lesser technology at that point too.

QuoteHow do you know how slavery works (it can very well be a legal trade scenario)

Here is some background story about rimworld:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

So, there is basically no form of government in our rimworlds.

Quotehow traders pick up cargo (a shuttle (!) completely negates your argument)

Buy something and you see this capsules slowly landing close to your beacon and fading to invisibility. Whatever that is could be used as a weapon.

Quotewhat would slavers eat if they can't trade

They value a pistol more then food if you sell it to them, that makes me believe that they aren't starving. And you can buy their food too, for low price.

Ackording to the background story there is no faster then light travel. Traveling between stars would take YEARS.

Traveling for such a long time to buy and sell pistols sounds unprofitable to me....

Also, i guess you would most likely make sure  that you have enough food before you start a multiple years long journey. Or a self sustaining ship (otherwise, how do they have enough oxygen for years?)

Quote from: DFplayer on January 23, 2014, 09:47:32 AMHere is some background story about rimworld:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

So, there is basically no form of government in our rimworlds.

Nope, it's not what it says.

QuoteRimworlds - Distant and isolated planets lacking in strong central government and low in population density

There is no strong central governmnet, it mention nothing about no form of government at all. Actually it could even suggest that there is some sort of weak central government, or a theoretic one - like core worlds.

QuoteBuy something and you see this capsules slowly landing close to your beacon and fading to invisibility. Whatever that is could be used as a weapon.

So your whole point is made only because of early alpha's graphical representation, that is there because that animation was already there? It does not explain how they pick cargo up from the planet. It can very well be a placeholder or a replacement, because in early stage anything more complicated was not possible.

QuoteThey value a pistol more then food if you sell it to them, that makes me believe that they aren't starving. And you can buy their food too, for low price.

Again, your whole argument is based on in-game state of the matters, which is just poor. Not to mention, it is invalid - you analyze the situation where slavers do NOT come down to enslave everyone when you trade with them. If they did - would you be selling them that food?

QuoteAckording to the background story there is no faster then light travel. Traveling between stars would take YEARS.
Traveling for such a long time to buy and sell pistols sounds unprofitable to me....

Again, assumptions. What if there is another planet - or five - in that solar system? Now with a better assumption, that you can base something off actually - why trade between stars if travel takes decades? Wouldn't it be a better thing to assume in-system trade? Something, I believe, Tynan mentioned?

QuoteAlso, i guess you would most likely make sure  that you have enough food before you start a multiple years long journey. Or a self sustaining ship (otherwise, how do they have enough oxygen for years?)

One - there is no detail about how that travel happens. It can be cryo pods, it can be recycling of matter, it can be anything. Two - this whole argument is irrelevant to the case. My argument was - "how would slavers get any food if no-one would trade with them?" How does "they would have to" answer that?


You make a lot of assumptions, and no argumentation. You can't argue with someone who presents their assumptions as arguments - please, keep that in mind.

QuoteAgain, your whole argument is based on in-game state of the matters, which is just poor. Not to mention, it is invalid - you analyze the situation where slavers do NOT come down to enslave everyone when you trade with them. If they did - would you be selling them that food?

They could simply loot our food and other valuables afterwards.

I highly doubt that prices of food and weapons will change much, as it would drastically change the balance of the game. - You can produce an unlimited amount of food, making it more valuable then thousand year old weapons would completely destroy the balance.

QuoteThere is no strong central governmnet, it mention nothing about no form of government at all. Actually it could even suggest that there is some sort of weak central government, or a theoretic one - like core worlds.

Good point.

QuoteSo your whole point is made only because of early alpha's graphical representation, that is there because that animation was already there? It does not explain how they pick cargo up from the planet. It can very well be a placeholder or a replacement, because in early stage anything more complicated was not possible.

Couldn't anything, a shuttle or some kind of torpedo with high accuracy, be abused as an weapon? (or at least travel a bomb or remote controlled attack drone etc...)

All you need to do is get something inside the base that kills or disables the colonists. At least most of them. (there aren't many to begin with)

QuoteAgain, assumptions. What if there is another planet - or five - in that solar system? Now with a better assumption, that you can base something off actually - why trade between stars if travel takes decades? Wouldn't it be a better thing to assume in-system trade? Something, I believe, Tynan mentioned?

Right. But then one of this planets in the system would most likely be higher advanced then the current earth. At least advanced enough to maintain constant upkeep of multiple spacecrafts.

Also, earth like planets aren't common. So either they are in possession of space stations or able to colonize/terraform planets that are hostile to life. (technology far, far beyond industrial tech)

Even if you assume that there is a system with multiple earth like planets (in the same solar system? sounds impossible to me because of the individual distance to the sun of each planet ), even then traveling from Planet to planet with a high tech spacecraft to sell weapons of the last millennial seems ridiculous to me.

QuoteIt can be cryo pods, it can be recycling of matter, it can be anything.

Yes, but all of these technology's would be beyond industrial tech.

QuoteYou make a lot of assumptions, and no argumentation. You can't argue with someone who presents their assumptions as arguments - please, keep that in mind.

Yes, i assume that rimworld is based on the real world. Don't forget how the argumentation started. The argumentation started with the assumption that smart robots shouldn't be included in the game because that would be unrealistic. Which already implies that rimworld is based on real world.

And you counter my assumptions with assumptions of yourself. (like multiple habitable planets in a single solar system).

As we talk about a piece of fiction, theoretical, everything strange or any logical gap could be explained with "its magic" as there is nothing that could stop tynan from including magic in rimworld. He is the god of this world. If we don't assume that rimworld is more or less based on real world (most fiction is at least loosely based on reality and physics etc.), any discussion about story or realism becomes absurd. I will stop here before this becomes another wall of text.

You seem to be entirely missing the point that is the fact that space travel takes a very long time, so new ideas and technology don't spread very quickly. Figure it like this: as the whole world is inter-connected now with the internet, in the 1800's a village in the American Wild West suddenly had a magical barrier seperate it from the rest of the world.  What are the odds that they keep moving along at the same pace? What are the chances that the next Tesla or Einstein is born in that specific town, rather than being cut off from it?

For that matter, who's to say that tech will even develop the same way? The Byzantines used "Greek fire" a thousand years ago and we still have no idea what exactly it was. Technological advancement is not linear, so just because something seems nearby for us does not mean that it's nearby for anyone with a similar tech-level, or even a higher tech-level. We haven't been able to replicate Damascus steel, the Roman secret of concrete wasn't done again for a millenia, etc. It's entirely possible to have a Greek phalanx with laser beams (and they may have even had a death ray, if you believe the legend about Archimedes doing it, another example). You should not judge all technological advancement for all cultures based on the way that specifically ours has gone.

Right, but our colonists are able to fly a spaceship and can build complicated high tech buildings in a few hours.

Having planets that are stuck in the middle- or industrial age sounds plausible for me. People being able to build and fly spacecrafts, communication devices and automatic turrets being stuck with weapons from the wild west era is what bothers me. If they can build an automatic turret with a highly advanced neuronal network as artificial intelligence, that also must have some highly advanced sensors(!) then building a machine gun, tank or even a gunship shouldn't be much of a problem for them.

Simply by building these turrets they prove that they are capable of building automatic weapons by themselves. They also have the technology for remote triggered bombs. It should be possible to use that knowledge for something superior then a pistol or shotgun. (its really not a big step). How hard could it be to tinker an artillery or mortar if they can build these turrets and bombs?



And it still sounds ridiculous to me to fly from solar system to solar system in a highly advanced spaceship to buy pistols.

Quote from: DFplayer on January 23, 2014, 01:25:08 PM
Right, but our colonists are able to fly a spaceship and can build complicated high tech buildings in a few hours.

We also have a lot of people today who can use the internet but can't run a telegraph line. We have people who can fly drones but couldn't operate a steamboat. Just because it's more high tech doesn't mean that it's harder to learn to use.

QuoteHaving planets that are stuck in the middle- or industrial age sounds plausible for me. People being able to build and fly spacecrafts, communication devices and automatic turrets being stuck with weapons from the wild west era is what bothers me.

Again, technology isn't linear. It's entirely possible that some human civilization exists a billion lightyears from here that figured out how to get into orbit without ever creating gunpowder.

QuoteIf they can build an automatic turret with a highly advanced neuronal network as artificial intelligence, that also must have some highly advanced sensors(!) then building a machine gun, tank or even a gunship shouldn't be much of a problem for them.

The turret is not fully automatic, it's in bursts with a long reload time, as opposed to the pistol providing a more steady rate of fire. Mayube they haven't developed a rapid-feed system yet for large-caliber guns such as those turrets? Also, do you see raiders land on the surface in ships? No, in drop pods. There is no implication that anywhere in the universe there exists a ship capable of breaking out of the atmosphere and into orbit, yet also able to just hover within the atmosphere. That's rather high-tech aeronautics. If you look at what we have today, the idea of the space shuttle hovering or landing carefully on the surface is laughable. So saying "a gunship shouldn't be much of a problem" is again poorly interpreting technological advancements.

And also, let me say that saying "it's not really a big step" to go from remote-triggered explosives to artillery because they know how to make burst-fire turrets is completely wrong. The study of firearms is much more complex than "put it down a barrel and shoot it". Firing arrows required a bow, yet firing boulders required a catapult. The two have entirely different firing mechanisms because the projectiles are entirely different. A small stone required a sling, an arrow required a bow, and a boulder required a catapult or trebuchet. Like this, firing bullets and firing bombs are completely different things, and as I've said multiple times, technology isn't linear. It's possible that they have gunpoweder knowledge forever without ever discovering rocketry.

QuoteAnd it still sounds ridiculous to me to fly from solar system to solar system in a highly advanced spaceship to buy pistols.

If a ship specializes in weaponry, and it takes a long time to travel, they want to have ample variety to have the largest possible consumer base. They're not going to exclude potential customers and not stock something just because they feel a gun doesn't have enough firepower when it's still an effective gun. That's just a poor business model that alienates their target consumer-base for no real reason, considering a full ship of arms would have plenty of storage space to have such variety. That's like running a bicycle shop and refusing to sell cheap bicycles fitted with training wheels just because they aren't as good as your carbon-fiber $3000 sports bikes.

Quote from: DFplayer on January 23, 2014, 12:03:43 PMAnd you counter my assumptions with assumptions of yourself. (like multiple habitable planets in a single solar system).

I do not argument based on assumptions, I break your arguments by presenting alternative assumptions. As your arguments are all based on far-gone assumptions, providing a counter-assumption is the only way to discuss with you. It disproves the argument by presenting an alternate and as viable option in which the argument is invalid - due to different set of assumptions.

I cannot counter-argument you. Your argumentation is based on assumptions, and that means any of my arguments could be just further ignored by you by assuming more and more - which you did exactly. It's like arguing with someone who thinks jews rule the world - you cannot disprove it, so he'll keep arguing it must be true.

Quote from: kdfsjljklgjfg on January 23, 2014, 09:34:21 PM

Quote from: DFplayer on January 23, 2014, 01:25:08 PM
Right, but our colonists are able to fly a spaceship and can build complicated high tech buildings in a few hours.

We also have a lot of people today who can use the internet but can't run a telegraph line. We have people who can fly drones but couldn't operate a steamboat. Just because it's more high tech doesn't mean that it's harder to learn to use.

That so much. And other points too.

You mean assumptions like theres rarely more then one habitable planet per solar system? Yea, thats totally far stretched... -__-

QuoteIt's like arguing with someone who thinks jews rule the world - you cannot disprove it, so he'll keep arguing it must be true.

My response to that is a Wikipedia Quote:

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_HitlerumAccording to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is an informal fallacy that consists of trying to refute an opponent's view by comparing it to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party.

QuoteAgain, technology isn't linear. It's entirely possible that some human civilization exists a billion lightyears from here that figured out how to get into orbit without ever creating gunpowder.

Right, but i know its incredibly far stretched for me to say that in a hostile universe like rimworld you would assume that advancing in weaponry or defenses is a high priority.

And because of the FACT that our colonists can easily build some amazing communication and radar devices right away and there is interstellar travel i kinda question how isolated they can be that they never heard of more advanced weaponry then bows and pistols.

And its a fact that there are more advanced weaponry out there in the universe of rimworld.

Its quite amazing that they managed to be so isolated and at the one side so highly advanced in any form of technology (space travel, electronics, communication, mining, super fast building/engineering ...) and at the other side so low tech in something that should be something of high priority for them.

That's not impossible, but Yes, I'm the one who's assumptions are a bit far stretched, right? :)

QuoteWe also have a lot of people today who can use the internet but can't run a telegraph line. We have people who can fly drones but couldn't operate a steamboat. Just because it's more high tech doesn't mean that it's harder to learn to use.

QuoteThat so much. And other points too.

I know that assuming that an engineer with knowledge in weaponry (enough to build an highly advanced automatic turret) can use his skills and knowledge to tinker weapons is incredibly far stretched. (really?! -__- )

THATS IMPOSSIBLE! He would need a completely different set of skills for doing this. Its totally comparable to how someone who can use the Internet can't use a telegraph.

Its so far stretched for me that en engineer with knowledge of electronics, physics, weapons etc. can somehow use that knowledge to build new things, like improvised weapons and traps. Right.

Next you will tell me that they haven't researched wheels yet in the Rimworld universe, thus they won't be able to build armored vehicles. Because that Assumption is not even slightly far stretched.

Quote from: DFplayer on January 24, 2014, 07:11:59 AM
You mean assumptions like theres rarely more then one habitable planet per solar system? Yea, thats totally far stretched... -__-

This one wasn't an assumption, this one was referring to statement by Tynan as well as I've remembered it.

Quote from: DFplayer on January 24, 2014, 07:11:59 AM

QuoteIt's like arguing with someone who thinks jews rule the world - you cannot disprove it, so he'll keep arguing it must be true.

My response to that is a Wikipedia Quote:

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_HitlerumAccording to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is an informal fallacy that consists of trying to refute an opponent's view by comparing it to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party.

Do you mean you want to compare me to Hitler in response? Or anything that contains word "jew" in it is nazi by nature? Because this has nothing to do with my statement. Please, read it again.

Quote from: Galileus on January 24, 2014, 07:57:00 AM
Do you mean you want to compare me to Hitler in response? Or anything that contains word "jew" in it is nazi by nature? Because this has nothing to do with my statement. Please, read it again.

"to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party."

That jews rule the world was a major claim by hitler and his party. They aren't the only antisemites in the world, but the first you think of.

I don't see the logic in assuming that i somehow compare you with hitler? You accuse me of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" because i accused you of it? What?

I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, it was inappropriate and unnecessary of you to bring antisemitism up in a discussion about realism of a fictional videogame.

link to the Wikpedia article of Reductio ad Hitlerum (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum")

QuoteAccording to Strauss, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a form of ad hominem or ad misericordiam, a fallacy of irrelevance, in which a conclusion is suggested based solely on something's or someone's origin rather than its current meaning. The suggested rationale is one of guilt by association. Its name is a variation on the term reductio ad absurdum.

Reductio ad Hitlerum is sometimes called "playing the Nazi card."[2] According to its critics and proponents, it is a tactic often used to derail arguments, because such comparisons tend to distract and anger the opponent.[2]

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Also, argumentum ad hominem.

Ok, i got a question then. :)

Why compare my way of argumentation just with that of antisemits instead of just pointing out a logical fallacy?

I've compared your reasoning based on assumptions with typical way of reasoning of most conspiracy theories. It just so happens this one is the most known one - also a wonderful subject for Dukaj's analysis of such argumentation in Xavras Wyżryn. It has nothing to do with antisemitism.

Correlation does not imply causation. Your whole line of attack here is to try and accuse me of accusing you of antisemitism when there was no such case. And seriously, pulling a Hitler card is pretty sickening, pulling a Hitler card and pretending to be a victim of it is just disgusting.

Any more about it from you, and I will end up calling up mods. There is a limit to what I'll agree to listen to.

Quote from: Galileus on January 24, 2014, 08:35:38 AM
I've compared your reasoning based on assumptions with typical way of reasoning of most conspiracy theories.

Right, why not just say that my way of argumenting is comparable to that of conspiracy theorists? Wouldn't that have been sufficient?

QuoteAnd seriously, pulling a Hitler card is pretty sickening ... and pretending to be a victim

I fully agree.

Wouldn't it be sufficient to stop when I told you I've meant no such thing? Are you STILL trying to blame me of something? Because I have had about enough of your arrogant holier-than-thou bollocks.

So, FFS, EoT.

Can i summarize?

I say that i find your comparision of my way of argumentation with that of antisemites inappropriate.

Your response is that i try to compare you with hitler, which doesn't even make sense. (your immediate response isn't that this wasn't your intention).

So i ask you about your intention and afterwards you threaten me by calling the mods (what do you want to tell them, that i thought it was inappropriate and out of context of you to compare my argumentation with that of antisemites?)

I keep asking you for your intention and necessary of that comparision and you keep overeacting even more.

Quote from: Galileus on January 24, 2014, 09:13:05 AMWouldn't it be sufficient to stop when I told you I've meant no such thing?

Ok, if so, let's stop that.

QuoteI know that assuming that an engineer with knowledge in weaponry (enough to build an highly advanced automatic turret) can use his skills and knowledge to tinker weapons is incredibly far stretched. (really?! -__- )

Knowledge in one area of weaponry, not another.

During WW2, who made most of Germany's small arms? Mauser
Who made most of their artillery? Krupp and Rheinmetall
Who made their aircraft? Focke-Wulf, Messerschmitt, and Heinkel
Who made their warships? Blohm & Voss

And yet, one guy is supposed to have a more varied skillset than several enormous state-funded companies? Different weapons require different knowledge, often even if this involves just the tiniest variation between them.

How about instead of automated units, remote controlled units? A remote controlled construction droid that still requires a colonist to control it but it can build significantly faster. They are more efficient than your colonists but you are more limited in how many you can have than robots since they still require people to control them. They are also expensive, require a lot of power, perhaps require recharging and are susceptible to solar flares and such. Might be more fun than robots. Also of course remote controlled combat droids and so on... Or powered armor suits, something like the exoskeleton in alien? Anything to keep your people the center of attention instead of being more or less replaced by robots in the later game.

Quote from: Stoker on January 24, 2014, 04:53:49 PM
How about instead of automated units, remote controlled units? A remote controlled construction droid that still requires a colonist to control it but it can build significantly faster. They are more efficient than your colonists but you are more limited in how many you can have than robots since they still require people to control them. They are also expensive, require a lot of power, perhaps require recharging and are susceptible to solar flares and such. Might be more fun than robots. Also of course remote controlled combat droids and so on... Or powered armor suits, something like the exoskeleton in alien? Anything to keep your people the center of attention instead of being more or less replaced by robots in the later game.

Even before finished reading your post, I've thought about loaders from aliens :) Yes, this is deffintielly an interesting approach I can support!

Just a further thought. This could be two different levels of technology. The exoskeletons are a bit more low tech and the remote controlled droids are more high-tech. Mostly since they keep your colonists out of danger, perhaps however you could limit their usefulness further by a limited range, say some sort of transmitter that they have to stay in touch with. Also means maybe they can't operate far underground...

This would be a great way to differentiate non-combat things from combat things - is such things come. Early, low tech exo's would be dangerous in fight while remotes would be much more safe to be used as fighting machines.

I have an example of a low tech combat exoskeleton. The wearer would have to strap on the suit.
The suit will have massive flat shield on 1 arm in the front. This shield is like a wall, the user can tilt behind his massive yet mobile shield. The exoskeleton shield have a 90% of covering the user if it was shot in front of it. The rest of the exoskeleton however is protected by standard Kevlar(reinforced with steel plating) that soaks up the damage dealt directly to the user. (the shield should be repaired or replaced by using metal)

Quote from: DFplayer on January 22, 2014, 09:40:57 PM

QuoteActually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

But the conversation about whether or not its realistic stopped. Afterwards started a new conversation.

One of the disadvantages of a bulletin board is that posts are sorted in chronological order instead of their thematic, but i can't change that.

Its still a valid discussion under the main topic of this thread.

Quoteactually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

I did, i can't see why you'd think otherwise.

But it seems like you never questioned what you read.

Quotebut many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.

Guess why i said that everyone who is VISITING us has the technology of space travel and, more important, our first three colonists do! I never said everyone has, just the people visiting us and our three starting colonists.

Except all these people visiting us lived their whole life on the planet we stranded on. (However, there are event's about people crashlanding on our rimworld and im sure that raiders will attack with energy weapons at some point.)

QuoteThee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

I say its simply because of gameplay and style (like steampunk, its a cool but unrealistic mix of modern and middle age).

Realistically it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

People that can travel in space definitely wouldn't rely on middle age weapons.

I mean, honestly, come on.

A space ship flying trough space, to a rimworld far away from civilization, to sell you gunpowder weapons of the last millennium?! Does this sound like an economic business model for you? They have higher costs for fuel then what these primitives could offer you. If these ships can't travel faster then light, how much profit will you make by traveling for some hundred of years to sell freaking gunpowder weapons?!

Even sending these weapons via some kind of torpedos to a definite location on a rimworld (making sure that they don't get destroyed by entering atmosphere or landing impact!!!!) is more expensive then anything a primitive colony could offer these weapon dealers. (and, again, the technology for doing so is more advanced then anything we have today.)

And what do we sell these gun dealers? Pistols and selfmade nutrient paste... Wow, thats definitely a good deal for them! They own high tech of the next millennial and trade pistols with pistols... Also I guess that if they are capable of traveling for hundred of years they made sure that they won't suffer by starvation at any point, and they give you far more for pistols then for nutrient paste, so it's not like they desperately need our nutrient paste.

If we had anything useful to offer them, why shouldn't these slave traders simply jump down to our colony and kill us all with some advanced weapons and then take whatever they need? Or at least try to threaten and gouge us?

You know, even a modern helicopter gunship from our current realworld could easily conquer and destroy our little colony without damaging the stockpiles.That kind of helicopter that has mounted multiple rockets with a range of multiple kilometers could easily deal with our turrets. Or some remote controlled attack drones the us uses in 2014.

Or how about gas attacks? Or Radiation? Everything could be looted afterwards. If the colonists have to rely on pistols, it shouldn't be much of a problem to kill them and take whatever these primitives could offer you. The colonists are usually armed with nothing more then a handful of pistols when the first slave or weapon trader arrives.

It simply doesn't make sense, if you managed to own a spacecraft more advanced then anything we could build in the next hundred of years, it shouldn't be much of a problem to gather a gunship or attack drones from 2014.

If there are people building these spacecrafts, it shouldn't be much of a problem for these people to build some weapons from 2014. Not just rifles but bombs, gunships, atomic weapons, lethal gas bombs ....

Flying light years (!) trough space to sell gunpowder weapons is ridiculous. But its fun Gameplay wise. Having Energy rifles that could shoot over the complete map without missing would suck and no one would want that, no matter if it is realistic.

Edit:

QuoteThese places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower.

Yea, these automatic turrets are quite beyond industrial technology, so is the mining equipment of our colonists. And the spaceship they crashlanded with.

Or the communication technology to contact spaceships from far away. Its not a satellite, its something they built in the desert. In a single day. They didn't even needed the research lab for it. Its not even big. And doesn't need that much energy - 200 watt. 50 watt more then a standing lamp.

Its never told how far away these trading ships are, but i believe that they don't orbit the rimworld - planet and just fly somewhat nearby. Except they really want to trade pistols with primitives or there is indeed some advanced city on our planet that would justify to spent fuel and time to get into orbit and leave it afterwards...

They can build a communication device for space (that also detects spacecrafts) that doesn't need much more energy then a lamp and is quite small, on a desert.

The only thing that is industrial tech are the weapons and some buildings like solar panels, beds and lamps.

Oh, and the doors don't look like industrial tech either.

And i'm quite sure that the drones we'll built at some point in the game will most likely be equipped with industrial tech weapons too, no matter if this would be realistic :).

I'm back, seems like you LOVE arguments dfplayer, you got in one RIGHT after a left?

Yes it is a game, I understand that, and it fits right with its own lore, lets keep it in its own lore.

I'm not questioning what I read?
The reason for this is that TYNAN WROTE THAT.

Energy rifles do exist in game, you get them late game, but they do NOT shoot over the whole map.Liek I said they are rare and hard to come by.

faster then light/Light speed does NOT exist in the rimverse the document i linked you to says that in bold text RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING.

How do you not get this?

But for some truly gamebreaking discussion:
I presume that these traders may have access to a ship (they must) , but perhaps no high level weapons.I can assure you nobody would travel over multiple star systems in the rimverse to trade a couple m-14's to a few stranded colonists.But if somebody has access to a ship and can make profit off of all the people of this planet BY selling throughout the planet people would do that. Tis monopolizing. That is what happens when multiple tech levels collide.
But, it is  a game, I'll let that sly. (suspension of disbelief ACTIVATE)
One bigger question is, if they have a ship..why not just rescue the colonists or take em prisoner.

Our people were in "Longsleep pods" so we can safely assume we have been in space for a very long time.

But why not the traders?

Because they are stuck on this planet or in this solar system perhaps?

But if that is true why are we stuck with guns and not higher tech?

I mean if we have a civ that is capable of colonizing and navigating their own solar system they have access to higher tech?

The civ or the traders STOLE the ships?

we will never  know

Its a game.


I also believe the huge frequency of appearing and the variety of things that trader sells to you is simply as a placeholder, the game is NO WHERE near finished at this point and we can expect it to go in the more lore-friendly direction later in the games development.

However
And people are entitled to their own opinions as to how this game will turn out. I like the less technology idea.
You don't.

Tynan said robots will exist.. its no longer worth arguing about.

But we can try to brainstorm how we want the robots.

I want them to be drones similar to what me and gal came up with earlier.

Quote
Just a further thought. This could be two different levels of technology. The exoskeletons are a bit more low tech and the remote controlled droids are more high-tech. Mostly since they keep your colonists out of danger, perhaps however you could limit their usefulness further by a limited range, say some sort of transmitter that they have to stay in touch with. Also means maybe they can't operate far underground..

This I could live with.

The exoskeletons are also not a horrible idea.

Such discussion. Much argue. No sense.

I quit a long time ago.... robots turned into droids and people arguing about crap....

Yeah, locked. Shoulda done it a while ago.