"Gay" as a trait

[Zombra]

are you saying you agree that people with 1 hand are only 50% as effective as someone with 2 hands?

It's not how many you have - it's how you use them.   

[milon]

Does anyone have any comments on the fact that gay is a "bad" trait in the sense that it does nothing useful except for the very rare case where you get another gay pawn of the same gender and they happen to like each other?
Otherwise the gay pawn will regularly hit on pawns that will always turn him/her down, causing poor social relations. Could we maybe implement some sort of gaydar so gay pawns will be a bit more picky about whom they approach in a romantic fashion?

As someone else pointed out, it does occupy a Trait slot and prevent having an actual negative Trait instead.

But yeah, gaydar would be good. Or even learning from (repeated) rejected advances.

[cultist]

As someone else pointed out, it does occupy a Trait slot and prevent having an actual negative Trait instead.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your logic here, but it depends on the exact method the game uses to decide traits for pawns, which I'm not familiar with. If we imagine the Gay trait does not exist, does that actually guarantee a different trait in its place? Or would the pawn simply have fewer traits? I know the number of traits are usually 1-3, but how exactly does the game decide how many and which traits?

[milon]

Fair enough.  I don't know how it works either, I was just going with "this slot is occupied by something that's not a negative trait and that's good enough for me!"

But my preference is still to have Gay (etc) not take up a Trait slot.

[mumblemumble]

IIRC, traits (and all other info) is pretty much distributed by a point system. skill points, passions, health, bionics, ect, injuries, all have a point ranking when generated, passions, bionics, skills, obviously  costing points, and traits maybe costing points. Some traits have a negative value, some have positive. Depressive is negative, because its a pain, which is why some  depressive  people have great stats otherwise, cause it effectively gives more points, while hardworking TAKES points.

I always thought gay was a neutral trait (0 point value) but I could be wrong. But having the gay trait makes it less likely to get something interesting. Yes, I'm saying the gay thing as a trait is mechanically UN-interesting =) in addition to many other things.

Also I vehemently disagree on the future having "no labels", because frankly, differences aren't always just skin deep, and that is also insisting that all straight people who prefer opposite sex and ONLY opposite sex, would all of been killed off, converted, or whathave you, which is ridiculous. Even if that was the natural idea of "progression", which, well, it is not, but even if it was, progress isn't always held, and societal need for children besides.... So such mass acceptance for gay people, and other lgbt stuff wouldn't be a thing, certainly not a guaranteed thing.

And while gayness is no more of a choice than say, a strong urge to drink, it CAN be suppressed, and beaten if a person tries / has the resources to understand how their mind works. I've said many times before : The urge isn't a choice, but the actions are.

[charkesd]

And while gayness is no more of a choice than say, a strong urge to drink, it CAN be suppressed, and beaten if a person tries / has the resources to understand how their mind works.

hahaha

[cultist]

And while gayness is no more of a choice than say, a strong urge to drink, it CAN be suppressed, and beaten if a person tries / has the resources to understand how their mind works.

I'm sorry, but are you actually comparing homosexuality to alcoholism?

[Fluffy (l2032)]

I'm wondering who'd be more outraged, alcoholics or homosexuals. Probably a close call. Either way, the comparison is in pretty poor taste :p

[Thane]

I'm wondering who'd be more outraged, alcoholics or homosexuals. Probably a close call. Either way, the comparison is in pretty poor taste :p

Genetically it's not a bad comparison.

Homosexuality and alcoholism are both likely affected by epigenetic traits. Like overeating (proven that children who had parents who overate are more likely to overeat, even when separated from parents from birth) a strong work ethic and who knows what else (it's a new field) can all be attributed to epigenetic causes.

There is no gay-gene, but the debate is still out on whether there is an epigenetic cause.

As for the game.... Why are you all still talking about this?? Gay sort of needs to be a trait because the percentage of LGB people in reality rarely gets above that 5-10% range. Less among primitive cultures, due to *ahem* reasons. So making it anything else would be disingenuous.

[mumblemumble]

I compare it to alcoholism because unlike say, having black skin, or green eyes, or curly hair, you can RESIST DOING such things. If you tell someone whos black to not be black? you will NEVER get anywhere, as its physically impossible for them to will away the melanin. However drinking, or homosexuality? Both are huge impulses yes, but they CAN choose to not drink / have gay sex, even if its difficult. Saying someone cannot help but choose is borderline the same argument of excusing a rapist because "they can't help themselves". At the end of the day they still buy the beer , still drink, or still seek out / find a guy, and hook up. Nothing FORCES them, and if tied up / restrained, they wouldn't magically get drunk / hook up with a guy.

Also I've delt with alcoholics in the past before, and the biggest thing is removing temptation, and having support.. something which doesn't exist for trying to not be gay, often, as its shot down as bigotry, EVEN IF REQUESTED BY THE PERSON.

So yes, I am comparing them, mainly because both are MENTALLY not a choice, but actionally a choice.

Its like if someone has homicidal thoughts, do they go around killing? generally not.... even if the thoughts are intense, normal people have restraint.

Thoughts might not necessarily be controllable, but actions are. Any other argument is an excuse.

Heres a thought just to simplify it : if gay people CANNOT resist doing gay sexual acts, why do straight men not rape women 24/7 because they too, I imagine cannot help but be straight? More importantly, why are there some alcoholics that have been 20 years sober?

Answer is because restraint, resisting temptation, and choice... for all of them.

[Zombra]

Just to put this sidebar in perspective, by the exact same token, heterosexuality can also be suppressed and "beaten" in exactly the same way.

[mumblemumble]

It can, and is in some places. Its called Chasity. Its actually quite common. Except the reason for straight sex goes beyond just pleasure, having kids is a thing many people want. Your wording is rather aggressively skewed by the way, "beaten" implies someone wishes to conquer it, which many gay / alcoholic people wish. Few people really completely "wish" to "beat" being straight, but considering my past, having gender dysphoria, and strangely enough BEING in that situation (fucked up home life), I can say that yes, some people can wish to suppress straight feelings, but theres generally a messed up reason for it, OR, just annoyance as it as a distraction, but generally those feelings are not strong if caused by distraction. Theres also spiritual reasons, like monks or such, but those are for the very devout.

So yes, you are correct, straight feelings "can" be suppressed if one really wants to, but unlike the other examples, theres less reasons one would want to do so, and the reasons generally are less sound.

So does this mean we agree now? Gay, and straight feelings "can" both be suppressed? So you will no longer tell me people cannot help it? Though, I'd like to hear your reasons why straight people should suppress it.

Also, with the "who would be more offended" comment, what about an alcoholic homosexual? Those are pretty common.

[Zombra]

Your wording is rather aggressively skewed by the way, "beaten" implies someone wishes to conquer it,

Not my wording, yours.

Gayness CAN be suppressed and beaten.

-----

which many gay / alcoholic people wish.

Wow.  So most gays wish to be "cured"?  Would love to see your source on that.

So does this mean we agree now? Gay, and straight feelings "can" both be suppressed? So you will no longer tell me people cannot help it? Though, I'd like to hear your reasons why straight people should suppress it.

"You" meaning me personally?  I don't recall saying anything about what motivates sexuality.  I also never said straight people "should" suppress their sexuality; I just said they could "beat" it just like you said alcoholics and gays can "beat" their issues.  Interesting that you thought that phrasing meant I disapproved of heterosexuals or that they should be suppressed.  What does that say about the intent of your original statement?

[mumblemumble]

You saying beaten was in a different frame of reference than mine. Referring to straight, not gay. You did not explain "why" someone would wish to "beat" being straight. Which was entirely my point : I think you using the word suppress, contain, control, withhold, or other words would of been more appropriate unless you have a reason it should be beaten. I've already listed reasons the others should be beaten, you can go find them since you seem to love tracking my posts.

Many =/= most. Many people are gay, MOST people are straight. See? Although to be honest, I do believe quite a lot of gay people if they could, take a pill and magically be straight, they would. But unfortunately it isn't that simple, mental health NEVER is. But think about it, all the social stigma, health risks, disease risk, drug risk, and all the statistics surrounding it? If I felt that way, I would certainly want to pick the logically sensible one, if I could just program myself. I mean, I like junk food but KNOW its bad for me, and if I got the opportunity to be able to never want it, I'd take it. Plus, you must be kidding me if you have never heard of a person saying they WISH they could quit feeling a certain way.  What was that quote from the gay cowboy movie? "I wish I knew how to quit you"? Pretty much sums it up, some people feel certain ways but DO NOT WANT to feel certain ways.

As for if its curable, it has been done plenty of times, people going from straight, bi, gay, bi, then straight again, fluctuating in feelings. But really, please understand "curing" it, does not necessarily mean they will NEVER have a gay thought ever again. The mind doesn't work that way, just like alcoholism. "curing", means abstaining from actions, and making the urges manageable. Even 20 years sober AA folks will admit they occasionally think of it, but stay away from it. Same for "cured" gay people, the thoughts might still be there , yet are not acted on, and the stimuli holds less power than it might have before, but also like alcoholism, risk for relapse is there. Its also difficult since any type of conversion therapy is ILLEGAL, and cannot be practiced, thus documented medical cases for it especially in the west would be hard to find. But men having gay thoughts come and go is FAR from unheard of.

Well, considering you used the word beat, it DID seem like you were anti hetero in that sense. I'm anti homosexual (movement and thought process, not necessarily people) but I've admitted this pretty openly, and I try to treat people fairly even so, BUT, I state my reasons for my positions. So if you are implying I disapprove of homosexuality, among other things? Well, yeah... I've never really hidden this. So I guess your implication is right, but like I said, this was never hidden, so why should I care? I don't HATE gay people, nor trans people (I feel bad for both) but I disagree completely on how they are viewed. I'm GUESSING that is what you mean when you refer to my "Intent", or are you trying to say something else? Equivocating isn't helpful. If you have something to say, say it, because my intent is to spread awareness, and help those who seek it.

[Kegereneku]

IMPORTANT NOTE : I didn't follow the entire thread but I'm afraid it will be impossible to be "politically correct" on any of this. Nature simply don't care about our social-construct, and so absolutely anything can be argued as "a trait" or not depending of who you ask.

Like the idea that it isn't a "trait" as it is a Natural aspect of life that doesn't have an impact beyond Natural Selection. Or one could argue that Misogyny, Racism or Sexism should be trait, because those are Social Construct... allowing us to have a reason to expel/execute/sell, those peoples "unfit for civilization"... (Civilization being a natural social construct, see what I'm saying ?)


So I think that Devs are simply forced to take a stance on that and it will never, ever feel right. Simply because nature don't care about trait.

My stance :
Gayness should only be a factor/trait if the game intend to have multiple generation. Which I think would be stupid.
All the other-one are factor because it directly influence the scope of survival in the game.