Does bleeding out feel right?

jjgoldman · February 24, 2015, 11:18:35 AM

I've recently (9c and 9e) had a few instances of bleeding to death. Firstly, I find it hard to gauge the bleeding risk and how close to death a pawn is sometimes, and it often comes as a surprise that they succumb to bleeding. As well I often see individual pawns bleeding, conscious, and while they have medical skill they cannot tend to their own wounds. I understand you can't operate on yourself, but bandage your own wound to prevent a bleeding death? This seems odd.

JimmyAgnt007 · February 24, 2015, 11:22:29 AM

a blood meter would be handy. also some measure of first aid and self healing. but serious medical stuff like that should be just as important as putting out fires.

REMworlder · February 24, 2015, 11:31:21 AM

I might be misunderstanding, but you actually can tell how close a unit is to bleeding out by mousing over the Blood Loss shown in a unit's health stats. The number shown is a percentage of allowable blood loss, with 100% meaning death.

JimmyAgnt007 · February 24, 2015, 11:33:32 AM

i didnt know about that. will have to look next time

10001110 · February 24, 2015, 11:35:05 AM

This is where EdB and Icon pawn mods come into play. Lets hope they make it into Vanilla at some point, they're just essential... We do know for a fact that a pawn WILL bleed when hit by anything. Darn Chupacabra squirrels

I agree that Pawns should have a means to do some self bandaging, depending on their medical skills, and pawns with a certain medical skill should be able to do some field bandaging.
This all cooks to some sort of inventory system, so they could carry the stuff around (bandages and food). We all know how frustrating it is having the pawns go out attack a siege, just to start starving mid way there. Can't figure why they starve to death in a few days, btw, would make a lot more sense if they would just become incapacitated by weakness and needing medical attention.

tommytom · February 24, 2015, 06:31:05 PM

Also, the main page you see when you click someone will show "injured" and they have a "health bar" of sorts. I dunno if 0 = death or what (can vary?), but yeah, better blood info would be good. Especially a notification that says "a colonist is bleeding out!" and shows their % and name when you mouse over it.

Coenmcj · February 24, 2015, 08:14:38 PM

I could of sworn that bleeding was their Rate. Instead of how much blood had been lost.

cultist · February 25, 2015, 01:55:13 AM

Quote from: Coenmcj on February 24, 2015, 08:14:38 PM
I could of sworn that bleeding was their Rate. Instead of how much blood had been lost.

Each wound has a bleeding rate (in the tooltip I think). When bleeding gets serious (usually happens quickly, even with a single wound), a stat called blood loss appears at the top. If it reaches 100%.... well, you know. Free dinner :O

Cimanyd · February 25, 2015, 02:48:48 AM

Blood loss definitely seems a lot faster in A9 than in earlier versions. I don't really mind yet, but I think doctors need to prioritize treatment better, maybe by treating bleeding wounds before non-bleeding (e.g. bruises) but especially by treating people before feeding them. Feeding non-starving people while colonists and prisoners are bleeding is dangerous to them, and possibly unnecessary with non-incapacitated colonists that can just get up and get their own food after being treated anyway, without wasting the doctor's time.

At this point, I'm just manually prioritizing my doctors to make sure they treat the prisoners before they bleed out instead of feeding that slightly injured colonist. It's not much of a problem; I just would prefer if they were smart enough to do that themselves.

lusername · February 25, 2015, 07:07:20 AM

Quote from: 10001110 on February 24, 2015, 11:35:05 AM
We do know for a fact that a pawn WILL bleed when hit by anything. Darn Chupacabra squirrels

Nothing like a guy in power armor being mauled to death by a squirrel. It's no ordinary squirrel, apparently.

praguepride · February 25, 2015, 10:19:53 AM

A guy died because a beaver clipped his femoral artery. It happens...

So as mentioned if you go to your pawn's health tab and over over their injuries you can see additional information including how severe the injury is (as every body part has a health rating) as well as the "blood loss" rate.

Minor cuts and scrapes (i.e. <20% loss rate) are small and usually heal before you lose blood (however "death from a thousand cuts might come into play...).

HOWEVER if you ever have significant damage or worse have something torn out then you will see blood loss rates > 50% and although I don't know what the actual blood loss rate is anything greater then 50% you start running into issues where a pawn can bleed out. You have a major bullet wound, a missing leg etc. and will bleed out if not bandaged.

tommytom · February 25, 2015, 04:30:29 PM

Quote from: Cimanyd on February 25, 2015, 02:48:48 AM
Blood loss definitely seems a lot faster in A9 than in earlier versions. I don't really mind yet, but I think doctors need to prioritize treatment better, maybe by treating bleeding wounds before non-bleeding (e.g. bruises) but especially by treating people before feeding them. Feeding non-starving people while colonists and prisoners are bleeding is dangerous to them, and possibly unnecessary with non-incapacitated colonists that can just get up and get their own food after being treated anyway, without wasting the doctor's time.

At this point, I'm just manually prioritizing my doctors to make sure they treat the prisoners before they bleed out instead of feeding that slightly injured colonist. It's not much of a problem; I just would prefer if they were smart enough to do that themselves.

+1
My doctors like to go eat and sleep with 50% or less (plenty of food/rest to treat all of them and then some) and leave 4-5 guys bleeding out on the table (so to speak).

If someone is bleeding out, they better start treating them rather than be selfish a-holes. Even worse they generally want to FEED people instead of treat bleeding.

This happens almost 100% of the time (from playthroughs, not testing):
Leave everyone drafted but injured person and let him run to med bed.
Undraft best doctor to make sure he gets best treatment.
Undraft the rest as you don't care what they do.
Said doctor goes and finds a meal to feed the patient.
Worst-doctor-possible comes to treat the wounds with nearly 0% possibility.

Definitely need some priority tweaking. Especially with really bad doctor care possible now. Everything is manul priorities, it seems.

Edit:
Even though the overview says left is highest priority, having doctoring at 1 and art at 1 will make my backup doctor make art while the others are occupied with sleep or possibly even when draft. Now I can't make art as he will slave over it until he needs to sleep/eat letting people bleed out.

Lichtbringer · February 26, 2015, 02:21:13 AM

Quote from: tommytom on February 25, 2015, 04:30:29 PM
Quote from: Cimanyd on February 25, 2015, 02:48:48 AM
Blood loss definitely seems a lot faster in A9 than in earlier versions. I don't really mind yet, but I think doctors need to prioritize treatment better, maybe by treating bleeding wounds before non-bleeding (e.g. bruises) but especially by treating people before feeding them. Feeding non-starving people while colonists and prisoners are bleeding is dangerous to them, and possibly unnecessary with non-incapacitated colonists that can just get up and get their own food after being treated anyway, without wasting the doctor's time.

At this point, I'm just manually prioritizing my doctors to make sure they treat the prisoners before they bleed out instead of feeding that slightly injured colonist. It's not much of a problem; I just would prefer if they were smart enough to do that themselves.
+1
My doctors like to go eat and sleep with 50% or less (plenty of food/rest to treat all of them and then some) and leave 4-5 guys bleeding out on the table (so to speak).

If someone is bleeding out, they better start treating them rather than be selfish a-holes. Even worse they generally want to FEED people instead of treat bleeding.

This happens almost 100% of the time (from playthroughs, not testing):
Leave everyone drafted but injured person and let him run to med bed.
Undraft best doctor to make sure he gets best treatment.
Undraft the rest as you don't care what they do.
Said doctor goes and finds a meal to feed the patient.
Worst-doctor-possible comes to treat the wounds with nearly 0% possibility.

Definitely need some priority tweaking. Especially with really bad doctor care possible now. Everything is manul priorities, it seems.

Edit:
Even though the overview says left is highest priority, having doctoring at 1 and art at 1 will make my backup doctor make art while the others are occupied with sleep or possibly even when draft. Now I can't make art as he will slave over it until he needs to sleep/eat letting people bleed out.

I agree.
I hate it when my doctor feeds them first before healing. Also I noticed that something is up with the Scupturing, they are reluctant to leave it in the middle.
It is also annoying that I have to set a Colonist to Doctoring, if I want to MANUALLY order him to patch someone (mostly my main Doc who got hurt) up. Afterwards I have to dissable it again, so that only my good Doctor does the important stuff.

Solutions would be: Another "job", feeding People. Or Haulers/Wardens/Cooks feed people.
It would also be very nice if you could set a specific doctor for a specific bed. Then a no skiller could patch up my prisoners after an attack, while my good Docotr patches up everyone in a colonist/medical bed.

Tynan · February 26, 2015, 02:51:48 AM

I sped up bleed-out a bit for A9 but I think it might have been a mistake. I'll probably revert it for A10.

And yeah, doctors should be treating people before feeding them. I'll have to look into that. Not much point feeding someone who has 4 bleeding bullet wounds...

Boboid · February 26, 2015, 03:24:32 AM

Especially stomach wounds!
The feeding thing is pretty annoying, exacerbates the blood loss too.

I haven't personally minded the increased blood loss, encourages you to quickly deal with wounds rather than letting someone lay about for a DAY with a dozen bullet wounds, then trundling over when you can be bothered, hauling him back ( bumping his head on the doorstep ), and when you finally muster the energy, bandaging him.

It also contributes to the value of blunt weapons, I'd certainly love to see some blunt projectile weapons (rubber bullets, sandbag guns, that sort of thing) that offset low damage output with the advantage of not causing the victim to bleed ( and to get subsequently infected )

I find it an interesting decision to make, lethality vs efficiency and convenience.

But that's a decision that's more or less only made possible if bleeding is a sufficient downside to justify its circumnavigation.