Reverse the Decision on Trees and Fertilizer Pumps...

[DNK]

It's not that Greenhouses need 0 water, just significantly less than open farming. I'd argue enough that it isn't a great obstacle in the desert.

K, you go live in the desert for a year with a greenhouse and no water and let us know how it goes. You're greatly underestimating the water needs. "Significantly less" than 350,000 gallons per acre of corn (for open farmland) is still a LOT of water in an environment with no surface water or precipitation.

Every time you take crops out of your greenhouse, the water leaves with them. You need to replace that water for new crops, even if you've created a magically sealed greenhouse that lets 0 humidity out (in a desert, which you made out of stone blocks and wood from plans you made up on the fly...). Plants are 90% water. If your colonists consume 30# of crops per person per week, that's about 27# of water per person per week needed just to replace the water that was eaten out of the greenhouse. I suppose you could find some way to recycle fecal matter humidity... sure. Time/resources/bad thoughts.

And your people need to drink. A lot. Typically 3-4 liters per person per day.

And you need to clean things (not simulated). And you need it for a lot of industry (like smithing), which in reality tends to take up most of nations' water usage.

So where's all that water coming from. At least 50L/person/week is needed for everything in a desert (assuming 0 humidity loss from the greenhouse, which is absurd, especially since we don't have greenhouses in the game).

[Mathenaut]

All good points, the first two which I concede. This still suggests a massive rebalance is necessary the make the extremes of each biome unique, both in how they impact your colony and in what options you have to address those challenges. I'm still unclear what the huge fuss is, given it is known that trees can be modded into the game (there are several mods that do so already). Removing tree planting is simply Tynan's first try at rebalancing this. Is it not worth giving that a try before complaining about it?

I disagree with the final point, which implies that all colonists are walking encyclopedias. This is after a crash where presumably many other members perished. This ties in with a great suggestion I saw recently that colonist skills should shape the cost and/or availability of some research trees. Unfortunately, I think that for most players that would just lead to more min-maxing via character rolling or mods to game the system. That is despite the fact that constraints are a good part of any story...

I don't really bother with wood but for a few things. The only real issue I had has been addressed (expansion of stuffs system), so I don't really have a horse in the race. I'm just wondering what the justification is, as the previously stated justification doesn't hold in light of the changes made.

I also wouldn't say that each colonist is a 'walking encyclopedia', I'm more just arguing against the incredulity of colonists not being educated. People see research as something similar to 4x games where they are uncovering new knowledge. It's more akin to engineering, where it's less about knowing how to do it and more about designing how to jury-rig it.

I don't know how deserts work

The mohave desert reaches 100 precipitation and gets cold enough to snow. Even the saharah desert averages 20% (more during winter) and can occasionally rain, and this doesn't even include the underground systems. Not to mention how access to power and temperature control can expand means of managing small environments.

It's not the movies. Deserts are ecosystems, they aren't cartoonish homologous backdrops extending to forever.

[Vaperius]

I believe this is getting a bit derailed; Please focus on the gameplay effects of Tree planting and Fertilizer pumps.

Anyway; I am absolutely sure it will become an issue in the next update; more of one depending on how this all ultimately affects the game...

[Mathenaut]

That's the thing, though. These changes make trees the least efficient and most troublesome means of acquiring not-really-needed-as-much wood.

Removing the fert pumps just means more hydroponics. That's not more diversity in base design, that's explicitly less.

[Vaperius]

That's the thing, though. These changes make trees the least efficient and most troublesome means of acquiring not-really-needed-as-much wood.

Removing the fert pumps just means more hydroponics. That's not more diversity in base design, that's explicitly less.

Not necessarily; if a production chain was required to fuel the fertilizer pumps beyond simply it works... Would have to for example, build a section to compost waste...

Actually; hmm the concept of waste as a by product of eating food and using materials to build stuff etc craft things...hmmm that be interesting;
Then having the objective of dealing with it by dumping it in trash heaps or potentially recycling it...

[Mathenaut]

Not necessarily; if a production chain was required to fuel the fertilizer pumps beyond simply it works... Would have to for example, build a section to compost waste...

Then it's just a solution to a problem of your own design.

Easier to just use Hydroponics and avoid the BS alltogether.

[Vaperius]

That's the thing, though. These changes make trees the least efficient and most troublesome means of acquiring not-really-needed-as-much wood.

Then it's just a solution to a problem of your own design.

Easier to just use Hydroponics and avoid the BS alltogether.

You just...quoted your self... huh.. well in any case; whatever the purpose; I am still on board to just rebalance tree planting and make it nerfed enough that it not a problem to challenging gameplay but still worth it so we can keep wood stock close to base without relying on natural growth...

[Mathenaut]

Huh. Bad editing on my part. Meant to crop out something else.

[Vaperius]

Huh. Bad editing on my part. Meant to crop out something else.

OH....and in that case seeing what you quoted... eh; the fact that colonists don't create waste at all has bothered me...its more then a fertilizer and tree planting issue...it should be in the game in the first place because you don't always use all the wood or all the food you make etc...there at least a certain amount of waste from incompetence and a lack of hungry respectively....

[SSS]

The fertilizer pump removal is much more annoying. Mud and marsh are forever the enemy of nice-looking bases and (for now) geothermal power.

Some way to remove those terrain types (and maybe shallow water) would be nice.

[Igabod]

The fertilizer pump removal is much more annoying. Mud and marsh are forever the enemy of nice-looking bases and (for now) geothermal power.

Some way to remove those terrain types (and maybe shallow water) would be nice.

If all you want is a way to build on top of mud then you can use the mod I attached to the bottom of this post. You can build on mud just like it were soil.

[attachment deleted due to age]

[quxzcover]

Personally i have to many left over woods. my preferred biome is a boreal forest and i dig into mountains. saving most my steal for solar panels and basins for food ive now got over 200 hydroponic basins and still its not enough food for my 60 colonists with my food supplys slowly dwindling constantly and meat scarce i think for me at least the real problem is food.

[Mathenaut]

60 colonists

[Vaperius]

The fertilizer pump removal is much more annoying. Mud and marsh are forever the enemy of nice-looking bases and (for now) geothermal power.

Some way to remove those terrain types (and maybe shallow water) would be nice.

It be very much appreciated indeed. Still Fertilizer pumps were quite unbalanced. This forum is ultimately about rebalancing these features before they get put back in. We want them back though !

[Mathenaut]

I'd like to hear more on this about pumps, too.

How is pushing more people to hydroponics a good solution to fert pumps? How is nerfing pumps to the point that they are skipped for hydroponics a viable solution to fert pumps?

Is it understood that this is what is happening?