On the upcoming Steam release

[Tynan]

I think the idea that a game is "complete" when "you get x hours out of it" is just plain depressing in general.

I agree here. I wouldn't use hours of gameplay as a measure of "complete". For "complete" I'd look at: have promises been fulfilled? Are there design holes?

When I spoke of hours of gameplay I was really referring to the idea that the game is deficient in its volume of content. Measuring volume of content by the hours of entertainment it produces seems reasonable to me. It's a separate but related question from completeness to me.

I hope we see things like animal husbandry, void gods and generally more events to get trolled with before the towel is officially thrown.

Hey, I never said I'd never work on it again In fact there's a real good chance I'll add more content, in one way or another.

I also think the game right now has an acceptable level of content and features, but why settle for "GOOD" when you can blow people's minds with just an additional layer or two?

The future is long; this doesn't have to be the end of the story. There's always room for content updates, expansions (free or paid), and sequels. No need to have it all trapped in a single game IMO.

In this case, I've told people everything in that blog post, which I thought would be enough.

I think it will be noticed. I still saw a lot of differences when comparing early access games on steam and usually, when the devs were genuinely trying to create a game not only for money but for the community, and the game was also updated and worked on professionally, the steam reviews looked exceptionally. Just looking at Kerbal Space program and Prison architect. These two dev teams really give ("gave" since KSP finally left early access) the impression that they want to appeal to the community and are genuinely trying to create something for the community. There were almost no harsh steam reviews.

I agree, those guys are awesome examples to follow. If I was physically going to be here I almost certainly would be doing that.

[RemingtonRyder]

The only way there will be more modders, is if they purchase the game. and since the price is as much as a completed game, lots of people will be very skeptical. And why will they purchase the game knowing the developer is not going to be supporting or updating the game for at least 6 months? That does not satisfy the expectations of the gaming community for either an early access or a beta game. And to call this rimworld 1.0 is a huge stretch, when there is so little actual content.

Something that has been holding back the modding though is the knowledge that in four to six weeks, your mod might become an error-vomiting pile of junk. So, just the existing modders and some that have been waiting for a break will be able to produce an insane amount of mods in six months. I know I've got plans.

[TLHeart]

there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

Again, you are not thinking about the expectations of the community you are releasing too.

there is already a post from a new person here in this forum wondering about the tech tree, being completed so quickly. There will be many more of those from the steam community...

there is very limited interaction available with the other factions, or the visitors, it is not finished in that area.

Yes there is a lot of content for the first 4 to 5 hours of game play, then nothing.... At the alpha level, we the players will overlook many shortcomings, as we knew that was what we were buying. You have stated you feel the game is "done".  That word alone scares me, as the game is not polished, or a complete game. It is a great starting platform, as the modding community has shown. That is why I say content is limited.

After the short research tree is done, there is no middle game mechanics to drive the player. 

Interactions with the other 5 factions are limited to fight or ignore.

I appreciate your honesty in the blog post, and your interaction here.... but the mass market will not care about all that. They do care about content. And 99% of them will never realize all the effort that went into the combat system, and will complain about the difficulties of managing a battle.

I have tried to played dwarf fortress, can't stand the interface (lack of) and will never compare the two. Not a realistic comparison.

Have to keep in mind, that the community here is here because we enjoy the game. I have received great value out of the game, and I do overlook small irritations, bugs, and having to go to a mod to have a useable interface to interact with the individual colonist.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the year off, as I understand the burnout, and needing time away. The mass market of steam will not be so understanding.

[TLHeart]

The only way there will be more modders, is if they purchase the game. and since the price is as much as a completed game, lots of people will be very skeptical. And why will they purchase the game knowing the developer is not going to be supporting or updating the game for at least 6 months? That does not satisfy the expectations of the gaming community for either an early access or a beta game. And to call this rimworld 1.0 is a huge stretch, when there is so little actual content.

Something that has been holding back the modding though is the knowledge that in four to six weeks, your mod might become an error-vomiting pile of junk. So, just the existing modders and some that have been waiting for a break will be able to produce an insane amount of mods in six months. I know I've got plans.

That is not an increase of modders though, just fanatics that will release the mods they have been planning, and wanting to do. It will result in some new mods, but mods are always a hit and miss, if they are stable, and will work with other mods.

[Tynan]

TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

[Iolanthe]

You can equivocate over whether the game has remaining design holes (I don't think it does), but I think the statement that there is insufficient structural support for long term gameplay is true. There are a lot of areas that appear in the game but don't have any significant substance to them and I think this is the last remaining area that needs to be addressed before the game can be called feature complete (whatever that means).

For example;
Faction relationships that go beyond red or green numbers
A research/social policy system that contains proper progression/consequences
Deeper colonist-colonist interaction

These are obviously just pulled from thin air, but the greatest issue I have with the game currently is that most of the content is compacted. Needing to set up a temperature controlled area, establishing a food supply, building housing, setting up defenses all happen quite early and I'd like to see some overarching systems that drive the game forward/create emergent gameplay after that.

Either way, I've had fun playing and streaming the game and have gotten sufficient entertainment out of it
All the best for the future!

[Xerberus86]

there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

i hate to burst your bubble but people play so much hours of the game WITH mods, rarely i see a vanilla gameplay video of this game. they don't just play a modded version because they want a purple unicorn in their game. they play the modded version because they fill the game with content (more factions, more apparell, more weapons, better UI, more features, etc.). rimworld is a "ok" game and a GREAT game engine in terms of modding support. but the mods make the game great. the vanilla version lacks content, not features but items, polish (UI and game progress) etc.

just look at a recent post about "Technological standstill", there u even recommended mods. ur game is great combined with mods...but if one or some more mod makers stop doing their work it will fall hard.

[TLHeart]

TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

Banished and don't starve if you are releasing as rimworld 1.0. Both of which are $19.99.

Banished does not have the combat, but it does have a complete trading system. And I purchased it for $7.99 on sale.

Don't Starve, and Don't Starve DLC Reign of Giants I purchased for $14.99 on sale.

Dont starve has a  complete tech tree, as the game progresses, you need further tech to make new items. There are tuff battles with great rewards also( unique Items)

[Tynan]

Xerberus - I expect mods will always be way ahead of me. I can't ever match the output of dozens of modders. I'm glad that people mostly play with mods! And I think that would be the case even if I worked on RW for another decade. The modders will always be ahead of me no matter what I do.

TL - I'll take the Banished comparison. Banished has slightly more complex trading; RW has biomes, factions, combat, traits, skills, art, individual orders, deeper medical modeling, and an endgame. Being honest, I think RW holds up well here. (I couldn't compare Don't Starve; it looks like it's in another genre and I'm not that familiar with it.)

[Tynan]

Another option is to just not release on Steam this summer and delay until, say, some time in 2016.

I'm now considering this and would love to hear any thoughts on it. I'll be adding more stuff to the game either way on pretty much the same schedule; it's just about timing and presenting the Steam release the right way.

EDIT: Another path would be to just work through this summer, put out another alpha or two, and place the game on Steam EA right when I return in March next year. Then I can do further updates for a while and a final release at a later time.

[Caminha]

Xerberus - I expect mods will always be way ahead of me. I can't ever match the output of dozens of modders. I'm glad that people mostly play with mods! And I think that would be the case even if I worked on RW for another decade. The modders will always be ahead of me no matter what I do.

TL - I'll take the Banished comparison. Banished has slightly more complex trading; RW has biomes, factions, combat, traits, skills, art, individual orders, deeper medical modeling, and an endgame. Being honest, I think RW holds up well here. (I couldn't compare Don't Starve; it looks like it's in another genre and I'm not that familiar with it.)

Don't Starve still is a survival game where you need to collect resources, take care of your character needs (hunger, sanity and temperature), build a base and defend yourself. It's just less tactic. There's even an upcoming DLC that adds multiplayer, Don't Starve Together, and well, I have it for free because I bought the game a long time ago. :p

[akiceabear]

TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

Banished and don't starve if you are releasing as rimworld 1.0. Both of which are $19.99.

Banished does not have the combat, but it does have a complete trading system. And I purchased it for $7.99 on sale.

Don't Starve, and Don't Starve DLC Reign of Giants I purchased for $14.99 on sale.

Dont starve has a  complete tech tree, as the game progresses, you need further tech to make new items. There are tuff battles with great rewards also( unique Items)

Personally I love Banished - with the Colonial Charter mod. I find the vanilla gameplay quite stale after about 10 hours, but enjoyed much more after adding mods. I find the current version of vanilla RimWorld more compelling than vanilla Banished, although that is partly due to very different personalities and opportunity for emergent gameplay across the two. Both games are hugely better with mods, which is a credit to their design and communities.

[RemingtonRyder]

I think that the strong point of RimWorld is how well it expands with mods. It's not the same genre as Minecraft, but Minecraft is another example of a game which has many mods and expands its content repertoire with mods.

It's also able to reach a lot of players (and modders) with translations.

I think one of the things that was really great about A11 is that Tynan added a generic CreateMapCondition - effectively, if you can define a map condition in the code, you can trigger it with that. That allowed me to mod really harsh versions of map conditions with a little bit of copy-pasting. It's little advances like that which make the game more accessible to modding.

[Felucca]

Why not release it to steam as 1.0 in the very near future, after paying some TLC to the UI, and maybe some final tweaks/bugfixes.

But then work on relationships/politics (or really whatever additional systems are wanted)

And release a paid expansion pack. Cause, let's face it, the game everyone wants is too big for a $30 one-off.

[Euzio]

I've played Banished myself and have enjoyed it. Also considering that it was supposedly all done by 1 single guy working on it, the level of content it has is pretty impressive. Overall, while it is fundamentally different from Rimworld, it is technically similar as well. The main difference being an accelerated timeframe and RW having an actual end game if we were to choose it. Banished is basically never-ending.

The timeframe is what actually differentiates the gameplay as well as content level of both Banished and RW. Time passes very quickly in Banished and we get the sense of having to juggle population birth/death cycles. This is something that RW doesn't have (though technically the recruiting of prisoners is somewhat similar perhaps). RW has other things going for it in combat, factions, and individual peon character skills/traits.

That said, Banished is considered a finished game and RW is still in development. Also, vanilla RW is fun and playable but definitely, in order to have an even more enjoyable experience, playing with mods is the way to go. So much so that I find that without mods now, I don't really want to dive into a new build till some mods have been updated. However, despite the rather steep pricing of RW, I definitely don't regret buying it.

And as for steam integration itself, I would definitely welcome it as it allows the game to be updated automatically. However, it would be good if we are also given the option of rolling back to previous builds (similar to how 7 Days to Die does it). This would allow us to play stable builds with workable mods while waiting for any hotfixes or major mods to be thrown in.