Insufferable Fires

[GemCat]

This is an urgent need, to at least have a way to more quickly extinguish the fires until the fire-fighting AI is sorted out... my battery hall was going up in flames, and people were wandering about sweeping the floors and having themselves a nice meal. If I had extinguishers then at least the one or two colonists who figured out that their batteries are kinda important could have done something... instead I lost two batteries due to an electrical short. I have had scenarios where the consequences could have been far, far worse, simply because my colonists have no way to fight fires.

[Galileus]

Well, there is
Nothing super obvious but.

In terms of game design, the game draws most from the 800-pound gorilla of the simulation genre, Dwarf Fortress. We also take ideas from indie hits like FTL (our semi-random event format)

Still not a valid argument.

"Game draws from DF" can mean literally anything (otherwise argument of "colonists should be dwarfs" would be valid). Take a look at Dragon Age I compared to II, same case with Supreme Commander and Devil May Cry remakes. In all these cases you can say "game draws MASSIVELY from it's predecessor". And in all these cases the reincarnation is a babywalk that is supposed to be casual, in opposition to deep and also not so easy on complexity predecessors.

As long as I don't see Tynan state openly, that this game is not supposed to be easy - I'm going to oppose the idea wholeheartedly. Simply because I like the idea of "this game is supposed to present as much challenge as you want" much, much more promising.

And then yet, even with that "DF is not supposed to be easy", it's still not a valid argument. A valid argument is to flush out what player does wrong and try to correct him (thus showing the game is fair and balanced) or acknowledge the problem with some element of the game.

You can't just say "welp, you suck at this game" and expect anyone to take that as an answer to the problem at hand. It's like trying to argue, that the game crashes to windows to provide more challenge. Not a valid argument.

With AI being as it is right now with fire-fighting, there is nothing challenging about it. A challenge needs to be designed and weighted, solutions and tools need to be telegraphed to the player and appropriate playing field set for him. This is not the case in this problem. Thus "it's because game is not supposed to be easy" is not a valid argument.

[ItchyFlea]

This is an urgent need, to at least have a way to more quickly extinguish the fires until the fire-fighting AI is sorted out... my battery hall was going up in flames, and people were wandering about sweeping the floors and having themselves a nice meal. If I had extinguishers then at least the one or two colonists who figured out that their batteries are kinda important could have done something... instead I lost two batteries due to an electrical short. I have had scenarios where the consequences could have been far, far worse, simply because my colonists have no way to fight fires.

Your colonists do have a way to fight fires. By beating them out.
To have your colonists beat the fires out, first you need the area that's on fire to be set as a home area, and in the Overview screen, you need to ensure that firefighting is ticked, or if using manual priorities, make sure firefighting is set to 1 (highest priority).
If a colonist is in the middle of doing something when a fire starts, select him/her, draft them into combat then immediately release them, and they will head towards the fire to beat it out. (Assuming the above two conditions are met.)

[Untrustedlife]

Well, there is
Nothing super obvious but.

In terms of game design, the game draws most from the 800-pound gorilla of the simulation genre, Dwarf Fortress. We also take ideas from indie hits like FTL (our semi-random event format)

Still not a valid argument.

"Game draws from DF" can mean literally anything (otherwise argument of "colonists should be dwarfs" would be valid). Take a look at Dragon Age I compared to II, same case with Supreme Commander and Devil May Cry remakes. In all these cases you can say "game draws MASSIVELY from it's predecessor". And in all these cases the reincarnation is a babywalk that is supposed to be casual, in opposition to deep and also not so easy on complexity predecessors.

As long as I don't see Tynan state openly, that this game is not supposed to be easy - I'm going to oppose the idea wholeheartedly. Simply because I like the idea of "this game is supposed to present as much challenge as you want" much, much more promising.

And then yet, even with that "DF is not supposed to be easy", it's still not a valid argument. A valid argument is to flush out what player does wrong and try to correct him (thus showing the game is fair and balanced) or acknowledge the problem with some element of the game.

You can't just say "welp, you suck at this game" and expect anyone to take that as an answer to the problem at hand. It's like trying to argue, that the game crashes to windows to provide more challenge. Not a valid argument.

With AI being as it is right now with fire-fighting, there is nothing challenging about it. A challenge needs to be designed and weighted, solutions and tools need to be telegraphed to the player and appropriate playing field set for him. This is not the case in this problem. Thus "it's because game is not supposed to be easy" is not a valid argument.

I never said "You suck at this game your opinion doesn't matter" in any way.

In fact, I agree that the game should have as much difficulty as each individual player wants.

I also did suggest Tynan add fire extinguishers.
In that same post.

I am fine with people complaining hey, fires are unstoppable, fix em please, its all about balancing the game.

So I suggested fire extinguishers in order to alleviate this problem.

(And they should also double as blunt weapons  )

But fires shouldn't be made ridiculously easy to deal with either they should be a threat.
Especially right now where it is super easy to fight off raiders by making choke points. There needs to be some other threats to compensate for now. As you said, right now  it can be overlooked as he adds more interesting features to the game.

That is my opinion and i'm sticking to it.
You have your opinion to. 

And I do not wish to argue about it .

Hope you understand.

[Galileus]

Untrustedlife - I'm glad we're on the same page. As I see it, fires can very easily be an unfair challenge right now, and your comment gave me some impression about your position on the matter. Good too see it's not the case.

(I'm a bit biased abut this whole difficulty thing, as we actually had some people screaming and clawing away for their "one click KO" strategies not to be removed or debuffed)

Also, fire extinguishers would be nice, but I think the major problem now is the AI. People on the other end of the map can reserve a "job" of fighting fire and people near it end up happily scorching up, having nothing better to do. Which is especially painful when it's a colonist than needs to be put out - and the jobs fells to someone lightyears away. This, and far from perfect rules of firefighting.

That's why I think as of now fire is an unfair challenge, instead of supposed game deepening element. I would even say, that extinguishers should be kept for mid-game research - because I can easily agree fire should not be something you can just stroll through. It's a very definition of something that can easily go out of control if not checked quickly - and sometimes even despite that. As long as firefighting is fair and square, I do agree it should be a major threat, potentially game-ending if overlooked.

[Plasmatic]

Untrustedlife - I'm glad we're on the same page. As I see it, fires can very easily be an unfair challenge right now, and your comment gave me some impression about your position on the matter. Good too see it's not the case.

(I'm a bit biased abut this whole difficulty thing, as we actually had some people screaming and clawing away for their "one click KO" strategies not to be removed or debuffed)

Also, fire extinguishers would be nice, but I think the major problem now is the AI. People on the other end of the map can reserve a "job" of fighting fire and people near it end up happily scorching up, having nothing better to do. Which is especially painful when it's a colonist than needs to be put out - and the jobs fells to someone lightyears away. This, and far from perfect rules of firefighting.

That's why I think as of now fire is an unfair challenge, instead of supposed game deepening element. I would even say, that extinguishers should be kept for mid-game research - because I can easily agree fire should not be something you can just stroll through. It's a very definition of something that can easily go out of control if not checked quickly - and sometimes even despite that. As long as firefighting is fair and square, I do agree it should be a major threat, potentially game-ending if overlooked.

That, and items are would be non-flammable are among the most flammable.. like walls and doors..

I understand that the walls have wires in them to conduct power... but the entire wall is not made of flammable wires.. unless the metal we build walls from is magnesium, I'm pretty sure Iron and steel are not flammable on their own..

[Darker]

A forum flame about flames... Baa Dum Tss

[palandus]

I don't think they should double as blunt weapons. Since fire extinguishers are basically pressurized containers filled with the chemical that extinguishes fires, it would act like a miniature bomb if the container was punctured or broken in some way. Its highly possible that you may end up killing your poor colonist if their extinguisher explodes.

[Tynan]

I'll just take this thread as an indication that fires may need some rebalancing. Or there need to be better tools to fight them (I always planned to have more advanced firefighting tools available).

[palandus]

The fires themselves don't need rebalancing per say, Tynan. What needs rebalancing is determining which structures and buildings CAN catch fire. As almost all structures have a flammability of 1.0 (found via modding), this means that almost anything can catch fire. The most annoying part of fires is that they can light your conduits and walls on fire, which leads to internal blazes that are hard to keep in check.

What would be useful is to have buildings with flammability indexes between 0.0 and 1.0, where objects that can't get lit on fire, like concrete, has an index of 0.0, whereas highly flammable carpet has an index of 1.0. Other things like semi-flammable sandbags, with an index of 0.3 or walls with an index of say 0.5 (considering they do conduct electricity afterall). So, what could be done is that an index of 1.0 has a 100% chance of catching fire when an ember interacts with the object a 50% chance (if 0.5) of catching fire when an ember interacts with an object, etc... (dependent on the flammability chance).

Other important things is that you should be able to prioritize fighting fires (you can't currently), and have better tools (ie Fire extinguishers) or static objects to deal with fires (static objects as in a Fire Suppression System, as an example)

[Lerxst]

Just started playing and this is my first post... in the fire thread.  They've caused a restart in my late-game on more than one occasion.  Yes, as Palandus said, the way fire spreads and methods of fighting them need some serious work.

I just lost a 60+ day game when a conduit from my Geothermal generator blew.  I watched about 25% of my underground base go up in flames right form the start and then watched helplessly as every carpet, wall and conduit caught fire.  Every colonist died fighting the fire and by the end, there was nothing but my concrete entrance left.

To start, just having a second type of wall available would be a huge benefit.  A "Rock" wall with similar qualities as a chunk of mountain, except construct-able (selling as opposed to mining it away).  No conduits, so no fires, only destructible.

I don't mind having to repair a damaged wall, but as it stands, wall are pretty much useless for defense.  Not that they get destroyed easily, but because fire travels through them like.... well... wildifre.  And having an external wall built only as a barricade, catch fire and then spread to an internal part of your base just outright sucks...

[Darker]

It's a good strategy to sell stuff around the fire. Actually, the only strategy. You can sell any undamaged structure.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It's a good strategy to sell stuff around the fire. Actually, the only strategy. You can sell any undamaged structure.

Not for long, unfortunately, because he's planning to go to Dwarf Fortress style "Designated deconstruction".

It looks like using hand grenades as fire extinguishers is probably going to be SOP for a while.

[Untrustedlife]

It's a good strategy to sell stuff around the fire. Actually, the only strategy. You can sell any undamaged structure.

Not for long, unfortunately, because he's planning to go to Dwarf Fortress style "Designated deconstruction".

It looks like using hand grenades as fire extinguishers is probably going to be SOP for a while.

I wouldn't say that that is unfortunate.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I wouldn't say that that is unfortunate.

I would, because fires are already so fucking insufferable that smart players just sell everything within two tiles of a fire and send someone with a hand grenade to blast it out.

Removing the ability to auto-sell stuff just exacerbates the situation.