Remove Turrets

[Jamini]

My point was only that turrets are already unnecessary, irrelevant, crutches that drastically increase raid size due to their cost and value as 1/3 a colonist. Part of the reason end-game colonies get massive 300+ tribal raids is the sheer number of turrets people build, not realizing that a proper, cheap, defense is far more effective.

I would personally rather we get rid of stock turrets, and replace them with mannable turrets that don't suck OR get valued at a stupidly high rate.

[JimmyAgnt007]

I agree.  Manned turrets are my preference with automated ones being a late game expensive unit.

So that means its an issue of balance and functionality.

We all have a different idea of what that might be so lets discuss some specifics on that.

[FMJ Penguin]

yup agree with both you guys
And I don't believe that trying to balance turrets by simply making them weaker is the answer like others have stated. Some of this just needs to be tested out... so when is he getting back? Oh that's right... 6 fkin months bhahahaha

[JimmyAgnt007]

Right now turrets have static effectiveness and value.

To improve them they can start weaker but get better with research.  Not to make them too complex but the idea is basically to HELP your colonists defend and not defend it for them.

Being manned is the first step I think.  Some armor between the colonist and harm.
My concept is like the turret on a WW2 bomber.  Something the colonist is 'inside'

manually equipped with weapons? Hardpoints on the turret that we install guns on, starts with one but can be increased.  I think there is a mod with something like that.

armor plating, different layer slots you can increase with research.  changes based on the 'stuff' you have in the slot.  So even if you only have one slot, you can replace steel with plasteel to increase the armor.

Installing an AI core makes it automated.  unless you have a really long or lucky game you generally dont get more than one or two of these. 

[LordMunchkin]

I would support this if we had manned turrets and the option to build super effective autoturrets. These super turrets would require more power, resources, and a AI core.

[jamesinar]

An armored turret you can install any weapon on would be great. Shotgun turrets for inside, sniper turrets for perimeter defense, minigun turrets for inside the walls.

[Toggle]

I would support this if we had manned turrets and the option to build super effective autoturrets. These super turrets would require more power, resources, and a AI core.

Considering the AI core itself would cost 7000 silver, plus probably the plasteel, uranium and steel because that's the stuff it would use for such a thing, it would have to be a bloody automatic-cannon to make it worth it.

[Kajin]

I would support this if we had manned turrets and the option to build super effective autoturrets. These super turrets would require more power, resources, and a AI core.

Considering the AI core itself would cost 7000 silver, plus probably the plasteel, uranium and steel because that's the stuff it would use for such a thing, it would have to be a bloody automatic-cannon to make it worth it.

Auto firing mortar? I'd want one of those.

[LordMunchkin]

I would support this if we had manned turrets and the option to build super effective autoturrets. These super turrets would require more power, resources, and a AI core.

Considering the AI core itself would cost 7000 silver, plus probably the plasteel, uranium and steel because that's the stuff it would use for such a thing, it would have to be a bloody automatic-cannon to make it worth it.

Well, if we had new heavy weapons that could only be used as turrets (50 cal HMG) and the accuracy of the automated turret was crazy high, I think it would be worth it. Another option would be to lower the cost of the AI core and allow them to be crafted. 

[Toggle]

The thing would literally just tear through EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING WOULD DIE. A CENTIPEDE WOULD RUN CRYING.

[zandadoum]

So with my colonies in A12 I have noticed that due to animals being added, the game is really a lot more reasonable to play without turrets.  I mean I still personally like them and use them.  But remembering Tynan not wanting them in earlier alphas due to several reasons maybe it is now time for them to go the way of the blasting charges.

Mostly I think the game is at a point where they could readily be removed with maybe some small re balances to raids and the game still be reasonable.

nobody forces you to make/use turrets. there. problem solved.

you don't like to use turret, don't make them. but there is certainly others who do like turrets, why screw them when the solution is so easy?

[akiceabear]

but there is certainly others who do like turrets, why screw them when the solution is so easy?

God mode would avoid screwing everyone also - but it isn't part of the regular game play. Tynan has mentioned he wanted to balance the game so there weren't any degenerate play styles - i.e. play styles that take away from unique story telling. Before that had to do with rebalancing biomes to be more varied. In the future it may mean tweaking turrets to make them a more interesting trade off.

I think turrets have already been nerfed quite a bit in the last few alphas, so I'm not gungho about changing them radically. I do think making them trade only, or behind more research, or only manned, is more consistent with the theme of vanilla Rimworld.

[Darkfirephoenix]

I think the bigger problem is the combat system in general. As already said Tribal raids are the main problem, even if you have 20 ppl with charge rifles the tribals will roll over you with 60+ pawns (unless you abuse the pawn/pathfinding AI). You would think that someone with a smg/minigun could take out 5+ people before they can reach him/her, but no they will eat 10 hit to the torso and still charge (and so act as a literal meat shield for their allies).

First of: Someone who got just shot/stabbed won't run immediately and even if they will be slowed due to the extreme pain (most likely they will fall and lie due to the shock from the pain, until they recovered. Ofc this isn't really the case if you are already pumped full with adrenaline to supress the pain, then you won't feel pain until the adrenaline is gone OR you collapse due to the damage you took)

Secondly: What is this "torso" we keep seeing? It is IMPOSSIBLE that you not hit something else inside if you shoot someone in the torso (digestive system, lungs, etc.) and in most cases it's very likely that you won't survive a gunshot to the torso unless you get fast medical care (also it hurts like hell to get shot in the torso).

So my conclusion is: We need a combat overhaul for the vanilla game first before we can think about taking away one of the most effective ways to defend oneself (save for abusing the AI flaws). We need more dangerous combat injuries (at least in therms of weapon injuries) combined with a better way to keep you pawns out of harms way (better cover system) and maybe even the option to give your pawns order to fire differently (deadly: aim for Torso and head, non-deadly: Target the limbs especially the legs).

Furthermore we need some AI improvements: I mean would you fire on this guy that sits 20 metres away from you with a shield and a knife and hasn't moved for 10 minutes OR do you fire on his allies that are shooting you from 30-40 metres away.
It should take into account these things:
distance, the weapon (guns>melee weapons), the moved distance towards me (in the last x ticks) and if the pawn has attacked/is attacking

[akiceabear]

@Darkfirephoenix - I strongly recommend you give Combat Realism a try. It address many of these issues quite well.

[Darkfirephoenix]

@Darkfirephoenix - I strongly recommend you give Combat Realism a try. It address many of these issues quite well.

Would it surprise you that I already use it?
No my real issue is that those changes should get implemented into the VANILLA game (to improve the incredible badly balanced combat and combat AI) BEFORE we even talk about taking turrets out of the vanilla game as they are more or less one of the few ways to survive without abusing the AI flaws.