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[Vagabond]

I really don't think those ratios work. Making a day 24 minutes long, so every hour is a minute, then making it so there's only 12 days in an entire year? I get what you're trying to do, but doesn't really work out well. And yeah, I misread your original post.

Zombie2,

Without trying to sound combative, could you explain your position on why you don't think it would work? It is difficult to hold a dialogue with only a position made, and no argument for it.

I argue three possible rl time to game day length ratios, with a fourth for the sake of completeness:

RL Seconds:In game hour
15:1 = 6 rl minute long day
30:1 = 12 rl minute long day
45:1 = 18 rl minute long day
60:1 = 24 rl minute long day

, and I argue one possible abstract timescale, with a second added for the sake of completeness:

Ig Day:Abstract month(s)
1:1 Twelve game days = one year. Based on the lack of heavy construction equipment, this abstraction meshes well with current (construction, research, mining, growing, and skill increase.) and my own proposed systems for gestation, human growth, and development.
1:3 Four game days = one year. This accelerates gameplay to much, I believe. I only added this because it meshed with human gestation. I do not quite support this rate.

Hypothetically (as I'm not responsible for such decisions, or privy to engine/labor limitations), I believe this would improve immersion, while at the same time opening up the possibilities for many new systems centered around simulation of not only the player colony, but also the colonies of other factions - allowing a realistic timescale for events and escalation of conflict, without sacrificing the pace of the game.

As a reference for such a model I've used scaling systems for The Guild series, and most multi-layer strategy games. The Sims 3 even deploys time abstraction (I believe the default value has a infant advancing to the toddler stage after just a couple of days).

Cheers,
Michael

[Toggle]

I just feel time shouldn't be changed, I didn't have an argument besides that. Also, the game uses ticks, 60 ticks is a second, http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Time. Better to use ticks then in-game hours. My argument now though...

So you're proposing, firstly, a 3600 tick day, 24 minutes. A current day is 8 minutes, so x3 time increase. But then you remove months and basically make it 12 days a year. Yet months are 1h 23m 20s, or 300,000 ticks. 43,000 ticks per year then, yet the current year is 3,600,000, or 16 hours, and your proposal would mean a full rimworld year would be done in about 11 minutes, a bit over a Rimworld day.

You're trying to fix the 'construction time problem' and fitting it into your own systems, but it would really fuck up time in the game. Our current time problems are how long it takes for pawns to do any task, completely speeding up time just really fucks it up. They would take half a day in Rimworld, 4 minutes, to walk an irl 5 minute walk. This is guessing for the walking past, but they walk extremely low as it is now, and we can't make them go super fast. Plus, with the speeding up ability, it could take roughly 4 minutes to finish an entire year in Rimworld. Four minutes. I just don't think this makes it realistic at all, it really just bends the time to your system and doesn't help the current time problems.

[Vagabond]

I just feel time shouldn't be changed, I didn't have an argument besides that. Also, the game uses ticks, 60 ticks is a second, http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Time. Better to use ticks then in-game hours. My argument now though...

So you're proposing, firstly, a 3600 tick day, 24 minutes. A current day is 8 minutes, so x3 time increase. But then you remove months and basically make it 12 days a year. Yet months are 1h 23m 20s, or 300,000 ticks. 43,000 ticks per year then, yet the current year is 3,600,000, or 16 hours, and your proposal would mean a full rimworld year would be done in about 11 minutes, a bit over a Rimworld day.

You're trying to fix the 'construction time problem' and fitting it into your own systems, but it would really fuck up time in the game. Our current time problems are how long it takes for pawns to do any task, completely speeding up time just really fucks it up. They would take half a day in Rimworld, 4 minutes, to walk an irl 5 minute walk. This is guessing for the walking past, but they walk extremely low as it is now, and we can't make them go super fast. Plus, with the speeding up ability, it could take roughly 4 minutes to finish an entire year in Rimworld. Four minutes. I just don't think this makes it realistic at all, it really just bends the time to your system and doesn't help the current time problems.

Zombie2,

The current flow of the game feels right. It isn't to fast, it isn't to slow. It keeps the game moving forward. Which is why I proposed altering perception of time, rather than a rebalance of work-ticks. I'm kind of confused as to why you are focusing so much on engine ticks as opposed to timescale, when most users don't "see" ticks. They see the seconds, minutes, and hours going by in game - not how the engine uses ticks to push them. That would just break the fourth wall and ruin immersion.

I really don't think those ratios work. Making a day 24 minutes long, so every hour is a minute, then making it so there's only 12 days in an entire year? I get what you're trying to do, but doesn't really work out well. And yeah, I misread your original post.

You also seem to be ignoring the three other scales in favor of the twenty four minute one. Perhaps you were just using it as an example, but bashing it, instead of the one more closely matched to the current one is a bit unfair, I think. If you insist on speaking engine, I'll do the conversions for you:

RL Seconds:In game hour
15:1 = 6 rl minute long day; 900 ticks. In game year: 10,800 ticks, or an 1h 12m rl.
30:1 = 12 rl minute long day; 1,800 ticks. In game year: 21,600 ticks, or 2h 24m rl.
45:1 = 18 rl minute long day; 2,700 ticks. In game year: 32,400 ticks, or 3h 36m rl.
60:1 = 24 rl minute long day; 3,600 ticks. In game year: 43,200 ticks, or 4h 48m rl.

Now...You use movement speed as an issue. As square size isn't published, I think it's safe to assume they are between three and five feet. A person wouldn't fit in a 1x1 or 2x2 square comfortably. As map sizes can be between 200-400 tiles, at 3 sq ft / tile we have a figure between 600 to 1200 feet across. At 4 sq ft/tile we have a figure between 800-1600. At 5sq ft/tile we have 1000-2000.

A mile is 5280, 3/4 mile is 3960, 1/2 2640, while 1/4 is 1320. Consider movement speed with these figures.

Then perhaps movement is the -only- aspect that is stretched by my suggestion, however you have to take into consideration that the "work" being conducted is abstractly representing a month. Consider how long it takes to mine, gather, process, and transport materials - then consider how long it takes to construct a building without heavy equipment. By using an abstract timescale, we have a plausible amount of time for this to have happened - as some amount of weeks, rather than days or hours. The same goes for researching, it has to be a record to draft, design, and blueprint the construction of a geothermal generator in two or three days for any scientist- especially when he has no other part in the construction. Those have to be really good instructions.

You've found one good argument against it, travel on our play map, which can be explained with the system as it being the sum of an entire month (for a 24 hour game day).

But if that is all, then consider what is improved, or could be implemented with it:

Construction: Takes weeks/months of abstract time, rather than days.
Mining: that Cheyenne Mountain Complex you're building has taken months, if not a years of work.
Research: No more inventing the wheel in a day.
Overland movement (off map): Can now take a reasonable amount of time, offering possibilities for mechanics geared towards off map missions
Sustainable Npc and player colonies: Population models that regenerate or deplete over time to account for births and deaths. (sorry, but this will force new interesting challenges that don't revolve around "Slaughter 100s of humans every few days")
Space Travel: No more building a vessel capable of traversing space, while at the same time keeping X amount of people alive via suspended animation in as much as some months or a year. This is now a project that takes years. We don't have the manpower (or resources) of NASA to churn one out in a short period of time.

The list goes on.

Work times don't need to change to fit this. They are fine as they are - they just need to be done in a new timescale to make more sense. This would have zero impact on pace or gameplay, except that it will allow deeper simulation and integration of mechanics that would be even more absurd in a game with a timescale that plays each individual day in less than ten minutes.

Take a look at some of the planned features on the most recent dev blog post. Families. Deeper relationships. These things need time to develop. If each day were a day, these things would be so painfully slow to happen (if modeled realistically) that they wouldn't be worth it. Essentially boiling down to colonist A meeting colonist B, two days pass, they are in love. In my timescale these things would have happened over the course of months, while not slowing down gameplay or having features that only occur after hundreds of hours of gameplay with the chance of being wiped away by a stray bullet the next moment.

Cheers,
Michael

[TLHeart]

But construction does not take weeks or months in real life. 2 people can build a shelter in one day, large enough to sleep in, cook in.

And sleep, with your time scale will make no sense, and neither would eating.

[Fluffy (l2032)]

we should probably not use 'this timescale makes no sense' as an argument for any timescale - in the end they're all abstractions for gameplay's sake.

What you should be asking is what is fun to play, and what would allow for interesting mechanics. Personally, I think the idea of longer days (a la the next alpha), but having months last a smaller amount of days (maybe configurable?) might be a good compromise between the two timescales we're talking about.

It'ld give a semi-realistic idea of what can be done in a day, but also allow for enough progression to allow some 'long term' gameplay mechanics (such as breeding colonists, diplomacy, etc) to actually work.

That said, I don't think the game should want to try and do everything. It's a very nice 'day to day' colony survival game, that doesn't necessarily mean tacking on features left and right is a good thing. I'm not at all convinced having babies/toddlers/teens running around is going to add anything to the fun of playing.

[Shurp]

Growth Hormones

These guys have advanced tech, right?  So why wait 9 months for a baby to pop out when if you really want to, you can have it grow in 3?  And Pirates Emporium will happily sell you growth pills so your baby can be a productive teenager (hauling wood and shooting raiders) in only 2 years!

[milon]

Growth Hormones

These guys have advanced tech, right?  So why wait 9 months for a baby to pop out when if you really want to, you can have it grow in 3?  And Pirates Emporium will happily sell you growth pills so your baby can be a productive teenager (hauling wood and shooting raiders) in only 2 years!

Just beware the rare but potentially serious side effects of accelerated-growth pills... 

[RadGH]

I was in search of a mod to add children and stumbled on this thread. Very disappointing by the close-mindedness of this community, sticking to realism over gameplay. It's absurd.

This guy gets it:

we should probably not use 'this timescale makes no sense' as an argument for any timescale - in the end they're all abstractions for gameplay's sake.

Most of Rimworld is fundamentally based on Dwarf Fortress. So why not children? Dwarf Fortress has children. A year in Dwarf Fortress is around 1 hour. It takes 12 years to be considered an adult.

Now forget years, because that's really unimportant.

Pregnant -> Baby: 45 Minutes
Baby -> Child: 1 Hour (Able to clean and haul)
Child -> Adult: 11 Hours

Rimworld has a different concept of roles and restrictions so it would be interesting to implement that with the aging process. Something like this:

Age 0: No skills avilable
Age 1: Hauling, Cleaning
Age 2: Artistic
Age 3: Animal Training
Age 4: Growing (Child labor? Damn right, you are trying to survive and everyone must chip in)
...
Age 12: Adult (finally unlocks Melee, Ranged)

"But a year takes 16 hours in Rimworld, so shouldn't it take 16*12 hour-" NO!!!

This isn't Earth. 1 Earth year does not equal 1 Rimworld year. It is perfectly valid that you grow from baby to adult within one game year. If you were on Neptune you would die of old age twice before you were 1 Neptune Year old.

--

Ugh, anyway. I think children should be in the game.

[Austintrollinski]

this sounds like a neat idea

[Toggle]

I can sign up on children that can do manual labour like pets, but not reproduction. Growing them from babies is just an inefficient method and stahp. Colonists don't gotta bloody mate.

[Vagabond]

But construction does not take weeks or months in real life. 2 people can build a shelter in one day, large enough to sleep in, cook in.

And sleep, with your time scale will make no sense, and neither would eating.

O.o; A shelter out of sticks? or Straw? Maybe a small square brick and mortar cube that they could crawl into. Sure, a small lean-too could be done. I accept that. But building a concrete or steel structure. . . No. A warehouse just put up down the street, that if based on scale in game to what it'd roughly be equivalent in rl....Would probably fit our geothermal generator in it.  Took about two-three months, maybe longer to build it with a full construction crew and heavy machinery.

So to sum that up: Survival shelter acceptable in one day. Construction of actual buildings -does- take weeks or months using construction -crews- and -heavy machinery-.

Sleeping and eating are the casualty of this and part of the abstraction. The Guild 2 has you playing a family and at the end of each day a year has passed. You don't sit there and go "man... how did a year go by, my people only ate -twice- in a year! They couldn't have survive on that single night of sleep!". The reason for this, is because its an acceptable abstraction to make construction, production, family, and all other facets of the game make more sense. Which is precisely the issue I find with this game. By having this abstraction, it would allow for TONS of new mechanics regarding relationships, diplomacy, logistics, ect.

Cheers,
Michael

[TLHeart]

But construction does not take weeks or months in real life. 2 people can build a shelter in one day, large enough to sleep in, cook in.

And sleep, with your time scale will make no sense, and neither would eating.

O.o; A shelter out of sticks? or Straw? Maybe a small square brick and mortar cube that they could crawl into. Sure, a small lean-too could be done. I accept that. But building a concrete or steel structure. . . No. A warehouse just put up down the street, that if based on scale in game to what it'd roughly be equivalent in rl....Would probably fit our geothermal generator in it.  Took about two-three months, maybe longer to build it with a full construction crew and heavy machinery.

So to sum that up: Survival shelter acceptable in one day. Construction of actual buildings -does- take weeks or months using construction -crews- and -heavy machinery-.

Sleeping and eating are the casualty of this and part of the abstraction. The Guild 2 has you playing a family and at the end of each day a year has passed. You don't sit there and go "man... how did a year go by, my people only ate -twice- in a year! They couldn't have survive on that single night of sleep!". The reason for this, is because its an acceptable abstraction to make construction, production, family, and all other facets of the game make more sense. Which is precisely the issue I find with this game. By having this abstraction, it would allow for TONS of new mechanics regarding relationships, diplomacy, logistics, ect.

Cheers,
Michael

First off, construction without government intervention and safety rules does not take months or weeks.... ever hear of a barn raising? where a barn, a large warehouse is erected in one or two days?  Happened all the time, before government safety regulations. And that is without HEAVY equipment also.

Sorry but I totally disagree with you on the time scale... It can use some MINOR adjustments. But nothing like the changes you want. I play and like rimworld because it is different from the games you are talking about. Let rimworld stand apart from other games, and NOT become those other games.

[Vagabond]

TLHeart,

First off, construction without government intervention and safety rules does not take months or weeks.... ever hear of a barn raising? where a barn, a large warehouse is erected in one or two days?  Happened all the time, before government safety regulations. And that is without HEAVY equipment also.

Sorry but I totally disagree with you on the time scale... It can use some MINOR adjustments. But nothing like the changes you want. I play and like rimworld because it is different from the games you are talking about. Let rimworld stand apart from other games, and NOT become those other games.

1) Barn raising was done with wood, joints, biscuits, dowel, nails, and wood angle supports over packed dirt.

2) Barn raising was performed by a LARGE amount of people, essentially the whole community - many different families.

3) This is different on so many levels from construction with steel, concrete, masonry, rebar, foundation, ect.

4) There is a reason for regulation of construction, aside from greed and half baked conspiracy theory. Without it, there is nothing to keep the constructors from building something that will fall on your head. In a place where there is no regulation, the architects and builders must check, double check, and revise as they build. Which takes even more time.

5) Simply throwing barn raising out there as having been an example of small structure construction, that is possible in two days, without considering the enormous amount of forethought and logistics is just... Yeah.

I agree that Rimworld is a great game. Even better in most ways than other games. However, I don't think I've ever come across a game that didn't have at least one thing about it that was just brilliant. Even if the rest of the game was bogus. Rimworld isn't perfect, some are content with the casual simulation and in favor of the arcade-like shoot'em up. I'm not, and by looking at the ways in which other games have made features I enjoyed work, I can suggest modified models of that mechanic in a way I see it working for another. I respect my opposition, but it doesn't deter me from putting forth my ideas of what I think will make the game better for me.

I'm honest and upfront about that. I'm in it for my entertainment. If my vision is aligned with, or inspires the developer of a game to come up with something else, then I couldn't be happier. If it stays the same, then I accept it as it is and continue playing, or set it aside. But I'll never regret the purchase of Rimworld, which ever way it goes - I've gotten my hours out of it.

Cheers,
Michael

[Masquerine]

If Rimworld had babies and children, they'd probably get treated the same way as babies in Dwarf fortress - mostly expendable. A baby gets captured/killed and the mother goes insane? Retain order with a hammering to the head. Some players would set traps using unwanted children as bait. You'd get players churning out babies for cannibal meals and leather chairs. It would be like the DF's mermaid baby farm all over again. As long as you can keep the pawn's mood positive, they'd be sad their children died but the room and meal is quite lovely.

Ethics and morality quickly go out the window when we become overseers. Even more so when players get bored and think of new ways to "have fun".

[Vagabond]

If Rimworld had babies and children, they'd probably get treated the same way as babies in Dwarf fortress - mostly expendable. A baby gets captured/killed and the mother goes insane? Retain order with a hammering to the head. Some players would set traps using unwanted children as bait. You'd get players churning out babies for cannibal meals and leather chairs. It would be like the DF's mermaid baby farm all over again. As long as you can keep the pawn's mood positive, they'd be sad their children died but the room and meal is quite lovely.

Ethics and morality quickly go out the window when we become overseers. Even more so when players get bored and think of new ways to "have fun".

I... Sorry, momentarily speechless. Such depravity should obviously have serious repercussions to the mental state of colonist and npcs whom aren't deranged cannibalistic psychopaths; Affecting happiness, relationships, and diplomacy.

Different faction types might have different reactions towards children. Some might try to take them to bolster their breeding pool. Some might take them to eat. Some might refrain from attacking. Others might simply try their best not to hit them. Idk.

This is an incredibly strange scenario you've presented. One I would have never thought of. Though it wouldn't surprise me that others have thought of it, or done it. Games, and particularly the internet, bring out strange things in some people.

Yea...Is this a true story?