Hidden traits!

[Greep]

Honestly this sounds like it'd be loads of fun and would be great as a checkmark like permadeath, maybe "Blind game".  It'd have to go hand in hand with hiding the stats page, shooter shot chance, mood meter and warning or it would be pretty pointless.

Maaaybe, show traits on the starting colonist(s), though.  Until they finally get around to rebalancing shooting/careful shooter. Gotta have that starting sniper

And I agree with borsuk, traits really aren't as important as people make them out to be, you can euthanize anyone at any time for a modest debuff and someone going berserk in your fort just isn't a big deal ("When I was your age, we arrested pawns to stop the inevitable post battle berserk" XD).  I've lately accepted anyone who isn't pyro, if they're volatile I can hold out for a joywire even on extreme, and chemical fascination pawns are useful until they hit massive tolerance. 

Sure pyros are annoying, but you can always dispose of them at the first sign of trouble.  And honestly it'd make a fun event, it's only a pain in the ass/ busywork when you are trying to maintain a fort of pyros, which is why nearly everyone eventually gets rid of them.

[Granitecosmos]

Honestly this sounds like it'd be loads of fun and would be great as a checkmark like permadeath, maybe "Blind game".  It'd have to go hand in hand with hiding the stats page, shooter shot chance, and mood meter or it would be pretty pointless.

As long as this is an option we can turn on and off, I have no problems with it.

And I agree with borsuk, traits really aren't as important as people make them out to be, you can euthanize anyone at any time for a modest debuff and someone going berserk in your fort just isn't a big deal ("When I was your age, we arrested pawns to stop the inevitable post battle berserk" XD).  I've lately accepted anyone who isn't pyro, if they're volatile I can hold out for a joywire even on extreme, and chemical fascination pawns are useful until they hit massive tolerance.

Sure pyros are annoying, but you can always dispose of them at the first sign of trouble.  And honestly it'd make a fun event, it's only a pain in the ass/ busywork when you are trying to maintain a fort of pyros, which is why nearly everyone eventually gets rid of them.

So you're basically saying exactly what I have. All this change would do is delay the extermination of unwanted traits from your colony. You still wouldn't tolerate them. Yeah, seems like traits are big enough of a deal that you'll euthanize pawns for having certain ones. Thanks for proving my point.

So I ask again, why have them hidden if you'll just euthanize the bad ones anyway? Might as well have them revealed and get to the hospital right away. This adds nothing but annoyance, having to watch your new pawn all the time to be able to act quickly if shit hits the fan.

[Greep]

Well, my point was, (with exception of pyro) why would having a hidden trait really hinder you in those cases?  Your fort isn't exactly going to collapse if you accidentally recruit a subpar pawn and they're worth recruiting even if only as a... temp job.  It takes kind of a long time before chem fascinations to become a liability for instance.  In that time they could've mined 10,000 steel in a deep drill or whatever.

You don't even need to react quickly to chem fascination.  If they accidentally overdose fatally it isn't a huge deal, but more importantly they usually mildly overdose years before the final one after getting massive tolerance giving plenty of warning.  So it really just mostly just comes down to pyro for intolerable traits.

[Granitecosmos]

...with exception of pyro...

So you say we'd need to rework/disable pyro before thinking about hiding traits. That's one of my points, we should fix traits first. You prove my point yet again.

Your fort isn't exactly going to collapse if you accidentally recruit a subpar pawn and they're worth recruiting even if only as a... temp job.

This is another one of my points, I'll take the pyro medic when there's no alternative but the first thing I'll do after recruiting a proper medic is kicking the pyro out.

It takes kind of a long time before chem fascinations to become a liability for instance.

Had a chem crazy guy in my colony a few days ago. 2 drug binges in 3 days. Luckily he overdosed the second time.

With the frequency of Luci, Go-Juice and other addictive stuff dropping from raiders these days, there would only be one way to handle the drug system if chem fascination was hidden: burn it all, never touch. Yeah, let's ignore an entire game mechanic because of how crippling withdrawal effects are. Sure as hell sounds fun, right?

But let's say you actually put up with it and decide to keep them around, feeding their addictions since withdrawal basically cripples them. Hello there, A16 new high-tolerance chronic disabilities! Brain damage, kidney failure, the occasional heart attack. Yeah, I'm not gonna bother with it. Which leads to execution, which shouldn't be the proper way to handle this stuff in the first place.

It seems like people don't get my point so let's make this clear right here, right now. There are some traits that are simply not fun to play with. As long as these stay in their current form, people will avoid them at all costs. Hiding traits would only annoy people and simply postpone the inevitable. If they get revealed over time it would encourage the "load game is fun stance" mentioned before. If it stays hidden forever people would just make artificial tests to see what traits the pawn probably has. Let's first get rid of/rework the annoying traits noone likes, then we can talk about hiding traits.

Games are meant to be fun. If there's someting the majority finds to be annoying (a.k.a. not fun) then it has to go. Pyros are hated everywhere. Chem crazy pawn ignore forbidden doors which is an extremely annoying thing, especially since it can be circumvented by putting an unfinished wall in front of the door, therefore the function is meaningless and only serves as a source of tedium.

So how about we make a new thread discussing possible solutions for these "un-fun" traits instead of arguing whether it is good to hide unbalanced maluses from players or not, since the answer is obvious for the latter.

[Greep]

In any case, as a forced option, this obviously wouldn't fly.  I agree, it's only worth considering as an optional mode.  So not too much point in arguing more.

[b0rsuk]

Granitecosmos, I think you're solving the wrong problem. The issue is with individual traits that should be tweaked.

For example, pyromaniac.
* will randomly break and run in front of advancing mechanoids
* colonists aren't smart enough to neutralize him, so you have to repeatedly order them manually!
* has no equivalent of Catharsis, can happen twice within a game hour
* two pyromaniacs are 3 times as bad as one, because they can't extinguish each other's fire
* ultimately, it causes PLAYER to have mental breaks, not the colonist.

Possible improvements:
+ link it to some kind of 'need' like drug addicts do, so it can't happen too often
+ give pyromaniacs a basic sense of self-preservation. They should either attack enemies they stumble upon, or run from them.
+ one way or another, 1-2 colonists should be able to AUTOMATICALLY contain the fire if they're healthy and not super busy. Fire could be prioritized by CLOSEST colonist, now it's common for a colonist to extinguish one fire and go back to work because a fire 5 tiles away has been prioritized by a miner on the other side of the map. Maybe FIrefighting job should get a special treatment and when a colonist extinguishes a fire he should stay nearby on guard for 10 seconds. Colonists could prioritize extinguishing objects and furniture to grass.

Pyromaniac isn't HARD to do deal with, it's much easier to deal than a drug addict. But it's incredibly repetitive and tedious, requires frequent manual management.

Now in the Cheapest Ideas thread someone posted a cute idea that pyromaniacs shouldn't panic when on fire. I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think it's a good solution because there will always be traits some players consider not worth the tradeoff!

[Granitecosmos]

Granitecosmos, I think you're solving the wrong problem. The issue is with individual traits that should be tweaked.

Oh, of course it's me who's solving the wrong problems. I mean it's not like that was my point the whole time.

There are traits that can easily make a pawn useless or a liability on the long run.

As long as we have traits that greatly change a pawn's interaction with the colony (pyro, abrasive, gay, night owl) OR the pawn's options/preferences about entire game mechanics (chemical interest/fascination, teetotaler, prosthophobe, brawler) it will never be a good idea to hide that information from the player.

Nope.

You've already admitted to there being unbalanced traits. Please don't make me quote you again. How about we try to come up with ideas that fix these traits instead of hiding information from players?

So you say we'd need to rework/disable pyro before thinking about hiding traits. That's one of my points, we should fix traits first. You prove my point yet again.

Not at all.

It seems like people don't get my point so let's make this clear right here, right now. There are some traits that are simply not fun to play with. As long as these stay in their current form, people will avoid them at all costs. Hiding traits would only annoy people and simply postpone the inevitable. If they get revealed over time it would encourage the "load game is fun stance" mentioned before. If it stays hidden forever people would just make artificial tests to see what traits the pawn probably has. Let's first get rid of/rework the annoying traits noone likes, then we can talk about hiding traits.

Games are meant to be fun. If there's someting the majority finds to be annoying (a.k.a. not fun) then it has to go. Pyros are hated everywhere. Chem crazy pawn ignore forbidden doors which is an extremely annoying thing, especially since it can be circumvented by putting an unfinished wall in front of the door, therefore the function is meaningless and only serves as a source of tedium.

So how about we make a new thread discussing possible solutions for these "un-fun" traits instead of arguing whether it is good to hide unbalanced maluses from players or not, since the answer is obvious for the latter.

Definitely not.

       

Makes me question whether you actually read my replies or not. And don't think you can pull a 180 degree turn on this matter so easily. Also, if you read this, you deserve a cookie.

Pyromaniac isn't HARD to do deal with, it's much easier to deal than a drug addict. But it's incredibly repetitive and tedious, requires frequent manual management.

Congratulations, you've finally understood what I was trying to tell you this whole time. These traits aren't necessarily hard to deal with but they surely are annoying and tedious. And that doesn't translate to fun for me.

[b0rsuk]

I don't agree about most of them, just a few like pyromaniac. You just make statements and voice opinions but don't back them up with anything. That doesn't work here - we're talking game design, not religion or politics.

Well, my point was, (with exception of pyro) why would having a hidden trait really hinder you in those cases?  Your fort isn't exactly going to collapse if you accidentally recruit a subpar pawn

But he's saying it is ! Go back to school !

[Granitecosmos]

You just make statements and voice opinions but don't back them up with anything.

And here we can see a fine example where you yourself back my point up for me:

Pyromaniac isn't HARD to do deal with, it's much easier to deal than a drug addict. But it's incredibly repetitive and tedious, requires frequent manual management.

Noone enjoys doing something they find annoying, repetitive and tedious. It simply isn't fun.

You told me it would be fine to hide traits. I told you the reasons why it wouldn't. Then you admitted to there being unbalanced traits and that it would be annoying and tedious for players to be unaware of them.

Please tell me, what else do you need?

Do you need me to point it out letter by letter? Are you unable to understand what I'm telling you here? Are you intentionally playing stupid now?

Let me put this straight, one last time, in a format that I really hope you will understand.

Do you enjoy playing with pyro pawns?
Do you enjoy playing with chem crazy pawns while NOT running a 100% drug free colony?
Do you enjoy playing with staggeringly ugly pawns that are hated by every other colonist?
No. You don't. They introduce unnecessarily high penalties and/or outright annoying mechanics.

Would you enjoy if these traits were hidden but the effects were still there?
No. You wouldn't. First of all, the first annoyance would catch you completely off-guard. Second, if the annoying action isn't announced for whatever reason you would have NO idea whatsoever which pawn is responsible for said annoyance.

Would this change the way you ultimately treat pawns with said traits?
No. It wouldn't. People who euthanize pyros will still euthanize pyros. People who exile chem crazies will still exile chem crazies.

So what would this improve on the current state of the game?
Absolutely. Nothing.

[b0rsuk]

Would you.... ?
Do you enjoy... ?
No, you don't.
No, you wouldn't.

I'll tell you what I don't enjoy. I don't enjoy arrogant and patronizing people acting as my spokesman. But you don't even stop there, you act like everyone's spokesman. Using many different fonts and typefaces doesn't make you more or less right, it just makes your posts look like a little girl's diary.

Noone enjoys doing something they find annoying, repetitive and tedious.

You are not the person to declare what most other people find annoying, repetitive or tedious. Everyone draws the line somewhere else. Many people enjoy things you find annoying, repetitive or tedious.

I haven't had experience with chemical fascination pawns, but yes, I do enjoy staggeringly ugly colonists.. In my previous tribal all melee game he was my best medic by a long shot, and I enjoyed the challenge of making him live with others with minimum friction. I built him a remote stone house with a research bench, restricted him to avoid my base and put him on a night shift. And gave him some fields to tend. I reduced contact he had with others to minimum, and it... worked. I enjoyed the extra challenge. Oh, by the way, he was incapable of violence. He only arrived at my colony to heal or to hide during a raird. Staggeringly Ugly is a bit like Horned Reaper in Dungeon Keeper 1. You had to build a separate living quarters for them, because they attacked everything on sight.

Many negative traits make you play in a different way and find different workarounds. A person with Depressive or Volatile may have Green Thumb or Bloodlust. If not, I could give him my best bedroom. Good beds and sculptures are a limited resource in early game so that's a non-trivial decision. I like strategy games, and they require such decisions. Maybe the person is a great shot ? That's a potentially good hunter, but I should save him for raids. Hunting tends to make people unhappy. They spend time in "ugly" areas with little comfort, and tend to eat outside. I consider many such things.

Pyromaniac is an exception because it doesn't really tie to any existing system, like mood system. There are many ways to boost a colonist's mood, but there are no ways to keep a pyromaniac stable, even temporarily.

As for hidden traits, I would enjoy being caught off-guard. A month down the road I may figure out my best melee fighter is a prostophobe. I wouldn't normally accept a melee prostophobe, but now I would have to stop and think how to use him while minimizing the risk. I love books or movies which surprise me, as long as they don't use manga logic.

[Granitecosmos]

I'll tell you what I don't enjoy. I don't enjoy arrogant and patronizing people acting as my spokesman. But you don't even stop there, you act like everyone's spokesman.

Everytime someone asks a question on Reddit about what to do with pyros/chem fascinated the general consensus is to turn them into cowboy hats. So excuuuse me princess, it seems like I do represent a considerably large part of the community, whether you like it or not.

You are not the person to declare what most other people find annoying, repetitive or tedious. Everyone draws the line somewhere else. Many people enjoy things you find annoying, repetitive or tedious.

Point taken. However, I've already seen many others' opinions on this matter. Reddit is the proof that I'm not deciding what others want, I simply raise awareness. Go ahead, check it out yourself. And yes, they even complain about staggeringly ugly. Let's be honest, a -80 debuf is a little bit exaggerated, now isn't it?

I haven't had experience with chemical fascination pawns

Yet you've claimed MANY TIMES that it's easier to deal with pyros or outright stating that there's no problem with it. And I was wondering why you talk about that like you have no idea. Figures. 
Let me tell you, they are as bad if not outright worse than pyros. And no, I don't consider ignoring an entire game mechanic a good solution.

Many negative traits make you play in a different way and find different workarounds.

Except for those that have no workaround because they introduce unavoidable mechanics that break already established rules. Like cham fascinated going on random binges despite full mood bar, ignoring forbidden restrictions. Pyro isn't the only exception.

Keeping mood high is easy enough. That doesn't mean the majority of players would voluntarily choose playing with colonists with a permanent -12 mood malus when they have other options simply because bad things can always happen and in that case it's easier to recover from temporarly mood spirals with non-depressive colonists.

As for hidden traits, I would enjoy being caught off-guard. A month down the road I may figure out my best melee fighter is a prostophobe. I wouldn't normally accept a melee prostophobe, but now I would have to stop and think how to use him while minimizing the risk. I love books or movies which surprise me, as long as they don't use manga logic.

Added as an option? As I've said before I wouldn't have a problem with it then. I'd just turn it off for myself. Forced on everyone? Hell no!

Like it or not, you are part of the minority on this one. Go ahead, make a poll or something if you don't believe me. How about you make a mod for it so you and everyone else who wants this can enjoy it without having to force it on everyone else.

The only reason why I'm still here and trying to prove my point is because this is the RimWorld Suggestions subforum and I, as well as many others, don't want this to be forced on us just because 2-3 people start a thread about it. It would improve nothing on the current state of the game. So go ahead, make a mod or something. I also made mods for things I thought were poorly executed or missing from the game. It has the benefit of achieving exactly what you want, while not forcing it on everyone.

Live and let live.

[milon]

I'm stepping in briefly to say two things:

1. You've all kept this fairly free of personal attacks even though you feel strongly about opposing views. That's awesome and I really appreciate it!

2. Does the cookie offer apply to everyone?

I now return you to your disagreement. Continue debating!

[b0rsuk]

Just a quick note, "add it as an option" is a very easy thing to say, but makes programmers sweat. Especially when it's a gameplay option affecting difficulty or balance. Suddenly you either have to keep balance in two rulesets, or completely neglect one of them. Good code design can make options simple to add, but this is more so when programmed with that in mind from the start.

I mean I had experience with chemical fascination but back then only beer was in the game, and it wasn't that bad, because the worst that could happen was he would drink himself unconscious and be rescued by a doctor. It automatically cared of itself. As far as I know, some drugs are still relatively harmless, for instance beer and smokeleaf. You can keep them in an otherwise drug free colony with a bunch of junkies. Doesn't luciferium clear brain damage ?

I'm still of the opinion that individual traits and systems should be tweaked, not the idea abandoned. For example, Rimworld has Sammy, addiction counselor with high Social skill. Except she can't do anything to help those on withdrawal and I had 2 at that point. There could also be a substitute drug whose only point is to help with withdrawal.

Unarmed social fights could be changed so that they have very low chance of destroying a body part, or hitting eyes. That would indirectly help with mental breaks.

I may be a bit of a control freak and a perfectionist, but most negative traits are not what bothers me in the game.

By the way you're undermining your own point. You're trying to shoot down the idea by attacking negative traits that are most poorly designed. That's an argument against those traits, not against the hidden trait system.

[Granitecosmos]

Just a quick note, "add it as an option" is a very easy thing to say, but makes programmers sweat. Especially when it's a gameplay option affecting difficulty or balance. Suddenly you either have to keep balance in two rulesets, or completely neglect one of them. Good code design can make options simple to add, but this is more so when programmed with that in mind from the start.

This is why I'd have had no problem with this thread if it was posted as a mod suggestion. Generally unpopular or 50-50 ideas don't tend to make it into the game. That's one of the reasons why we have mod support. Tynan can't satisfy everyone's wishes, if traits were hidden from the start we'd have a discussion similar to this, about revealing traits. Mods are the way to go about optional content.

I mean I had experience with chemical fascination but back then only beer was in the game...
Doesn't luciferium clear brain damage ?

I wouldn't have any problems with junkies if there was only beer either. But that's not the case anymore. It's a real pain now, they prefer hard drugs for binges, their binges ignore the mood meter, they ignore forbidden items and doors. If you deny their supply you'll be looking at 2-3 drug withdrawal effects at once for a long time. If you keep them stocked they slowly kill themselves via A16's new drug effects. Luciferium is a temporary fix, junkies WILL overdose at one point or another so it doesn't matter much. Thanks to their binges and several new needs they drain the conony's economy to the point where it's better to euthanize than to keep the pawn.

I'm still of the opinion that individual traits and systems should be tweaked, not the idea abandoned. For example, Rimworld has Sammy, addiction counselor with high Social skill. Except she can't do anything to help those on withdrawal and I had 2 at that point. There could also be a substitute drug whose only point is to help with withdrawal.

The whole time my point was that this idea is not feasible as long as we have traits with unbalanced maluses. I don't even know how many times do I tell you this now.
I do like the idea of a medicine that negates or reduces withdrawal effects. Make it cost high enough that it's easier to feed the addiction and it's balanced.

Unarmed social fights could be changed so that they have very low chance of destroying a body part, or hitting eyes. That would indirectly help with mental breaks.

Fists are restricted from hitting eyes already. The biggest problem is when your melee pawn goes berserk. The whole idea behind berserk pawns sould be reworked into "social fighting with anyone nearby until berserk pawn passes out".
I actually prefer berserk breaks most of the time, they don't make the pawn useless for days. And if the colonist didn't survive the "treatment", well, justice was served. I don't really get attached to my pawns anyway.

By the way you're undermining your own point. You're trying to shoot down the idea by attacking negative traits that are most poorly designed. That's an argument against those traits, not against the hidden trait system.

I think it's more like you haven't realized that this whole time my point was that your system would be bad because the current system is bad at the first place. If you hide the poorly designed traits here and now, it will cause nothing but grief. Fix the existing system, then we can think about hiding it. I've even made a reply mostly consisting of quoting myself, telling this exact same thing over and over, yet you still don't get it. Please just take your time and re-read my replies, one by one, slowly and you'll see. Hopefully.

Does the cookie offer apply to everyone?

Of course!

[Dragoon]

I have to agree with Granitecosmos. While the idea of discovering traits through time sounds interesting and may help to build a pawns character through discovery, at the same time, it seems really really annoying and unnecessary. I feel like in rim world you recruit people like in the walking dead. You ask them all the questions. And I honestly think it sucks when your only option is to euthanize a pawn because of bad traits. It feels unrealistic, and we already have to watch our pawns 24/7, because they are dumb even if we "fixed" the traits. Really we would be removing bad or annoying ones and most likely good ones. And it would make having hidden traits not matter. We would be better off having them gain traits over time rather than them having it and waiting for them to pop up randomly.