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Author Topic: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?  (Read 9000 times)

vampiresoap

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It's kind of weird that my ranged pawns fight with their fists when they're in melee range...I mean, like, can't they also swing their rifles or something and deal blunt damage? But yeah, letting them carry a small side arm is quite frankly the most intuitive thing to add in.
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NinjaDiscoJew

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 11:26:51 AM »

You should suggest this, it makes sense.
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KillTyrant

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 11:38:16 AM »

I know this has been suggested numerous times. I just dont remember what the official response was to it.
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BlackSmokeDMax

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 12:15:42 PM »

My guess is balance. Somewhat trivializes making an important choice between having a ranged vs melee equipped pawn.

Headshotkill

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 12:34:53 PM »

Probably something you'll find in Combat realism mod, or the upcoming Combat extended mod.
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Razzoriel

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 12:46:43 PM »

Probably something you'll find in Combat realism mod, or the upcoming Combat extended mod.
Yes. But weapon switching in CR was done in automatic time.

The balance problem is easily over with when one can simply make a stockpile below the shooting base of my colonists and change to them once other pawns charge in.

The best attempt at a successful backup melee weapon can be made if one makes a weapon switch mechanic based on the mass of the item; items with less mass get switched easier. So if my pawn is using a pistol and a knife, the switch would take less time than a spear and a minigun. It would encourage pawns to use lighter equipment and finally a use to machine pistols beside being a stepping stone to assault/charge rifles.
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Tynan

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 03:23:39 PM »

Micromanagement, mostly.

Both managing inventory, and the fact that now when you order an attack you need to specify what kind of attack.

Then there's the AI side.

It's just a lot of work and player burden for a pretty prosaic little feature.
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Stormfox

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 05:01:21 PM »

Micromanagement, mostly.

Both managing inventory, and the fact that now when you order an attack you need to specify what kind of attack.

Then there's the AI side.

It's just a lot of work and player burden for a pretty prosaic little feature.

Its not that prosaic, its one of the fundamentally frustrating things about Rimworld combat.

Also, it could be implemented in a very uncomplicated way by following these simple rules:
- If the pawn has a ranged weapon, it uses it.
- If the pawn is engaged in melee, it switches to its melee weapon until it no longer is engaged in melee.
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O Negative

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 05:23:31 PM »

Alternate solution:
Give (most) ranged weapons a secondary melee verb. (This is something the OP actually suggested.)
Ranged weapons should be worse than melee weapons in melee, but slightly better than fists.
I've done it my own mods in the past, and it works fairly well without affecting AI. It's all automatic :)

I'd be up for making the small changes and showcasing them in a short video, if you want to save yourself the time :P
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vampiresoap

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 11:27:25 PM »

Micromanagement, mostly.

Both managing inventory, and the fact that now when you order an attack you need to specify what kind of attack.

Then there's the AI side.

It's just a lot of work and player burden for a pretty prosaic little feature.

Hi Tynan! Big fan of your work ;) Been enjoying Rimworld for like a year now. Awesome progress so far!!

Oh I see your point. The potential added micromanagement could be frustrating, but what about adding just like two weapon slots to pawns? You know, like in Xcom where you can have like a side panel showing each weapon whenever you select a pawn? And they switch weapons automatically when they get in melee range. Oh they should also always shoot with their range weapons unless they are shift-clicked or ctrl-clicked to do melee attacks. That should mitigate some of the micromanagement problems.

And then there's also the alternative way of adding melee stats to ranged weapons. I mean, even a pistol helps in melee as you can potentially butt someone's head with the short stock. The main reason I posted this is because I lost too many pawns to wandering predators who suddenly goes mad. The lone ranged pawn is then forced to fight a megasloth with his bare hands lol...
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iceteazz

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 11:39:30 PM »

Micromanagement, mostly.

Both managing inventory, and the fact that now when you order an attack you need to specify what kind of attack.

Then there's the AI side.

It's just a lot of work and player burden for a pretty prosaic little feature.

 _ You got a good point, but we can let gunners use their weapon to fight instead of fists in melee that makes more sense.
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A Friend

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 11:39:39 PM »

The micromanagement would be worth it for a more engaging combat. If you're worried about balance, well it's already in favor of the enemy with their superior numbers (assuming you don't resort to cheese). Secondary weapons would just provide more options to the player and I don't see how that's bad as we're already in the mercy of RNG as it is.

The secondary weapon doesn't even have to be a knife, it could be grenades or a smaller gun for cqc.
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SchizoidCrow

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 10:48:03 PM »

Micromanagement, mostly.

Both managing inventory, and the fact that now when you order an attack you need to specify what kind of attack.

Then there's the AI side.

It's just a lot of work and player burden for a pretty prosaic little feature.

That's actually the kind of micromanagement I as a player would like to do, especially on the combat side, I think it could add a lot of strategies. It can be made very accessible by adding just a couple more buttons on the character cards, one to change the current the default weapon, and other to change the reaction of the colonist when entering melee combat. Besides, considering it would be something optional... I'm not sure how it could be tedious, as is something you'd do because you want.

Also, side arms could include shivs, clubs, and gladii. Maces might arguably be too heavy for this purpose.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 10:52:21 PM by SchizoidCrow »
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Euzio

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 11:07:09 PM »

I do think it would be alot more beneficial to have. Not asking for them to be loaded with an Assault rifle and a Longsword, but definitely at least a small melee weapon like a shiv or knife. That way they can at least switch out to engage in melee combat when necessary.

Case in point, its kinda hilarious and just dumb when a pawn equipped with like a sniper rifle gets taken out or has to run from a rabbit just because the rabbit got into melee range and he can barely fight back.
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makkenhoff

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Re: Is there a reason why a pawn can't carry like a backup knife?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2017, 01:33:10 AM »

I'd like to point out that if you use a ranged weapon to hit stuff in melee combat, your ranged weapon is going to end up damaged, or accidentally discharged. Since Rimworld lacks an ammunition system (and the headaches involved with one) accidental discharge is a real possibility.
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