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Author Topic: Killing killboxes.  (Read 7021 times)

Shurp

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2017, 05:13:43 PM »

I do like this idea, because it creates an opportunity for flexible responses by the player.  Say your killbox is killing lots of raiders, so they start attacking at another point.  Well, you can move all your turrets and other defenses over there and have a new killbox.  Until they figure that out and start going at another point.  And so on.  It forces the player to think, "hmmm, where might they attack next?" and gives him the opportunity to respond in advance.

Contrast this with how sappers behave.  As soon as you think they're going to attack at a particular spot and you put your defenses there, they nearly immediately switch targets.  Trying to anticipate them fails because they always know what you've done.

Giving the AI *limited* information is a much better idea than compete information... and this mechanic does sound very easy to implement.
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crystal6tak

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2018, 07:16:22 AM »

First time posting here, don't know if reviving old threads like this is ok.

I like this idea! Although the heatmap system could be simplified to be done without adding an entirely new system.

Just put an invisible 3x3 wall where an enemy down/dies. These walls don't actually block anything and is only taken into path calculation by enemy AI's. I'm assuming enemy AI's already take into account obstacle levels when path finding. They'll break down a wooden door when the base is surrounded by plasteel walls. So I'm assuming they do take into account the different levels of hardness between wood, slate, plasteel, etc.

Use this pre-existing system, give these invisible walls hardness (or whatever the game code named this variable). When a raider dies/downs, a 3x3 invisible wall spawns there, but with a very low hardness (lower than wood). When another 3x3 invisible wall spawns and overlaps a previous 3x3 invisible wall. The overlapped walls increases in hardness. Eventually the killbox entrance will be blocked off by invisible walls with hardness level much higher than plasteel so the raiders will stop pathing through there.

Then, just to keep the realism, make the invisible walls faction specific like the OP mentioned. Shouldn't be taxing to the system as the game just has to unload and load some walls depending on the faction of the raid.

I prefer what PatrykSzczescie said, instead of reducing the heat levels over time, do it after each raid. So similarly, just lower the hardness of each wall after the end of each faction specific raid.

Only issue I see with this is the enemy might start using these invisible wall as cover, hopefully the game code is flexible enough it can mark these walls to not be used as cover without too much effort from the dev.

I'm currently still playing my first colony (I'm on the 9th year already though). The very first defense system I setupped was essentially a killbox, and I didn't even know killbox was a thing! Lol.
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Tober6fire

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2018, 10:47:54 PM »

I am all for making the AI smarter but maybe if we do implement these ideas not all AI’s have to be this smart depending on the character traits. Such as a raider with high intelligence level would probably be thinking how to infiltrate a base better how to implement that into this game is maybe add some of these functions of recognizing were to go and were to not go for some pawns but not all of them or all raiders would be able to take advantage of you which is not exactly fun when you are trying to build a civilization a two or three raiders easily raider your early base since you were not prepared.
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jasiek0202

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 05:53:22 AM »

I couldn't agree more - even though I love cowering behind my impenetrable killbox, it is a clutch that the game would be better off without. The mechanics sound solid and they could also be used to make different raiders act differently - for example tribal raids could pay less attention to heat as they charge in a battle frenzy, while those horrible nasty mechanoids avoid kill boxes and attack you where you are the weakest
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Perq

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2018, 08:36:51 AM »

I don't know if i want raiders to destroy my walls everytime they feel threatened.
This might end in a very annoying fighting, which puts you more into hunting those skunky dudes, who are digging through your base.

I actually like the idea of learning. Same like traps, are remembered by raiders, dangerous spots should be remembered.
Raiders behaviour could split in a third behaviour. Now we have attacking and fleeding. I'd split that into scout, fight, flee:
When they arrive on the map, theyre all in a scouting mode, meaning they head for player structure, looking for things to kill or steal, do not shot on sight(they gather first and attack then). When somebody dies, they react and change tactics and direction.
When they get attacked a lot, or they did find a valuable treasure, they switch to battle mode. Now they attack offensivley, destroy walls and furniture, set fire and steal things.


Beyond all that, I'd really love to see another behaviour I mentioned already in another thread:
Whenever raider feel like they cannot attack a base effectively, one raider leaves the map. After he leaves 1-3 mortar shells are launched from off map, attacking outer walls.
When the attacking situation has changed, they attack, else another one leaves, up until 50% have left. If there's still no effect, they surrender or attack despite their chances.

1. That is the point - if they cannot attack from front, they should dig around. Think what you'd do. Would you go front and get killed, or group up in one spot and start digging your way in?
Yes, this will mean you'd have to leave your fort and fight them.
2. Errrr, what? Why would they leave if they are supposed to siege you? You win because they don't feel like attacking you? Lol. Also - mountain base. Mortars do nothing.
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Weyrling

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2018, 07:16:56 PM »

2. Errrr, what? Why would they leave if they are supposed to siege you? You win because they don't feel like attacking you? Lol. Also - mountain base. Mortars do nothing.
Why would they attack if they're basically guaranteed to die?
I'm all for the AI being smarter, but part of that should be the ability to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds.


Assuming that some kind of 'heat map' was generated, I would prefer that the AI set up their own fortifications right outside your base and did a proper siege instead of just mortaring you.

IE, instead of setting up mortars near the edge of the map they instead use the heat map and set up fortifications relatively close to your base, preferably within line of sight to a path leading into your base (or whatever other method they use to generate a path to target things).

After they set up this fort they could call in reinforcements and supplies at which point you'd get sappers and mortars and such on top of the raiding force.

You would have to either kill off enough of them to force a retreat or they would escalate.
This would force players to bribe the raiders to leave, go out and murder people, or set up a sufficiently epic trap that forces a retreat in one go (which killboxes generally don't do in my experience).
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Alenerel

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2018, 06:54:35 AM »

The problem with removing killboxes is that you WILL get overwhelmed, even if you build efficiently.

If you want a challenge its as easy as not building an killbox. I want challenges, but not only in the meaning of overwhelming raids... There can be other type of challenges too.
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crystal6tak

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2018, 12:23:32 PM »

The problem with removing killboxes is that you WILL get overwhelmed, even if you build efficiently.

If you want a challenge its as easy as not building an killbox. I want challenges, but not only in the meaning of overwhelming raids... There can be other type of challenges too.
Hence the reason to find a solution to make kill boxes less effective. We don't want a brute force solution (sending more units per raid) to counter killbox as that'll make it too overwhelming for non-killbox users.

On the other hand, if we balance the difficulty according to non-killbox users, it'll be too easy for killbox users.

Simply telling the player to not build killbox as a solution is just... too artifical. Especially if it's such a general progression of your colony. The most logical structure of a colony is to build a wall around your base, and have an entrance, which you will likely heavily guard, and... oh oops, you just built a kill box.

Tweaking what makes kill box so effective is the ideal solution. Building kill box will still be a thing (e.g. for slaughtering manhunting packs) but it won't be a be-all solution for enemy attacks.

Making the player build other types of defenses BECAUSE they're just as effective will make the gameplay feel more organic. Feeling challenged because the game is actually challenging is much more organic than feeling challenged because you're limiting yourself.
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Injured Muffalo

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2018, 03:07:03 PM »

RimWorld does provide tools for killboxes. I don't use them, but the lack of real defensive choices means you're going to be fighting "in the streets" without them.

So...I think pathfinding is the issue. The super long corridors shouldn't be seen as a sneaky way in by the attacker. They need to compromise between distance traveled and an open path.
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Alenerel

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 04:53:26 AM »

On the other hand, if we balance the difficulty according to non-killbox users, it'll be too easy for killbox users.

Its already too easy for killbox players...

About what you say about making AI more smart. Im ok if they get nerfed in numbers, but if their current numbers are made smarter then its just impossible.

To aid to this eradicate the killbox mission, some new defenses would also help, like manned turrets.
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tmo97

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2018, 01:53:14 PM »

there you go again wanting to change the entire game to accord to your preferred playstyle.

kill killboxes means change the way the game is played until killboxes are a bad option.
that's preference. how about you suggest changes that don't make something you hate smaller.

"Its already too easy for killbox players..."
This forum is dividing politically into two groups.
1. people who wanna constantly make this game rougher without regard to casuals
2. casuals who wanna ignore the higher difficulties

If you're gonna talk like that, it means you're demonizing and separating them from you.
They're already a 'them'. He's a filthy thisthatter because his preference is to thisthat, and thisthatters have it too easy.

The intuitive way to understand what is wrong with calling someone a thisthatter is to replace it with "jew" or "welfare receiver".

Stop saying "killbox users" and group labeling and then building on top of it.
There's no black people. There's that guy and his skin happens to be black, and my skin is less black. Once there's black people and you disidentify with being black, tada, you've now divided people into half. That's a common political tactic to get what you want. It's manipulative.

Fyi I don't care that this might be off-topic; stop trying to eradicate one type of player, and stop unequally appealing to target groups. Stop trying to remove killboxes, stop trying to force people to play a certain way. If you know killboxes are bad, don't use them. If you find some other easy to exploit mechanism in the game, are you gonna kill that too? Are you an anti-exploit person? Am I going to have to put you into a category to demonstrate my point now?
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Yoshida Keiji

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2018, 10:03:43 AM »

The Killbox is just one problem from a much larger issue that is: Feedback between player base/community and Ludeon Studios.

The preference to use a killbox is taken by weak players, who basically will be submitting lots of complains to "dumb down" the difficulty. This is a big problem for any decent gamer.

* A weak player forgets his pawns scattered across the whole map in all directions, and complains/request "Auto-Undraft". Tynan listens to them and now all decent players lose character control.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=40938.msg406201#msg406201

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=18835.0


* A weak player lays dozens of blueprints all over the map and complains about constructors delay. Tynan listens to them and now all decent players are affected by losing the "Repair" job on the work tab.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=35272.msg361154#msg361154


* Weak players get a Tornado and already start complaining because it spawned on top of their base and over a pawn or two, while Tornados can also spawns far away most of the time. Again, weak players complain and now decent players are left without natural disasters which was making the game more realistic.


* The problem with killboxes is that casuals who "depend" on them should be selecting "Base Builder" difficulty or start with the tutorial. But instead...they want to jump to high tier difficulties.


The heat map to make AI more challenging is very much needed because there is LITERALLY no difference between Rough - Intense - Extreme except for the enemy numbers. The heat map to Kill the Killboxes could easily be set to apply to Intense & Extreme difficulties only and leaving the easier settings for the casuals. This way the entire community wins.

Thing is...when you read that a killbox player requests a rifle that can shoot 100 tiles away... you know there is a problem...

Alenerel

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 03:32:08 PM »

So Im trying to play without a killbox and... Its just too hard to build the defenses without constantly thinking "okay, i cannot do this otherwise these are killboxes". Its just natural trying to corner the enemy or at least funnel them into, if not a 1 tile corridor, at least to a single flank where you can deal with them instead of leaving your butt surrounded like an idiot.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 09:14:28 AM by Alenerel »
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PatrykSzczescie

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2018, 05:14:00 PM »

So Im trying to play with a killbox and... Its just too hard to build the defenses without constantly thinking "okay, i cannot do this otherwise these are killboxes". Its just natural trying to corner the enemy or at least funnel them into, if not a 1 tile corridor, at least to a single flank where you can deal with them instead of leaving your butt surrounded like an idiot.

I tested that Builder difficulty you can fight off raiders without turrets or any defences, just use cover and the best melee weapon you can loot for melee pawns and guns for shooters. Use rock chunks and easy won fight.



After reading Yoshida's post, he reminded me of an RPG game I used to play. There were PvP and levelling system didn't affect PvP directly, only grinding to make money. The money was spent for EQ that served PvP purposes. It means even a new player with a lot of money could beat the most experienced players. However, passive players used to get robbed of their money during grinding before they could put their earnings into a bank.

And a developer of this game had a few ideas and introduced them, saying he'd implement those where the majority is more for than against. And one of them was to make some areas safe from PvP. It was a newbie-friendly idea so the majority supported this and devs implemented it. Before, wherever you wanted to grind, there was PvP, everywhere. Now, there are some safe areas for those who want to make money without PvP.

How did this work? It killed the game. In the next month, until the day today, the activity has decreased tenfold. This is my supposition from now on, but I think the split between PvP-active (who fought PvP) and PvP-passive players (who were grinding in safe areas) killed the game. The PvP-active players were unable to farm from the weaker ones, they could only fight with those who want, seeing it's not an RPG, but only a sole battle arena game. The PvP-passive ones were just grinding. They were grinding, grinding and grinding until they got so much money that they didn't know what to do with those, they got bored and quit the game.

This could be similar to this singleplayer RimWorld game. Players are proud of their achievements. They're also jealous, which could be seen by those who on greatest difficulty manage their colonies using cheap tricks innocently ridiculing those who play on the same difficulty. On the other hand, players who have difficulty fighting for real, if they make themselves too easy regardless of game difficulty, there will be a moment in the game where they get everything, meaning they can't get anything else and they'll lose their purpose of playing. A player enjoys the most when he overcomes a challenge of his difficulty, feeling he did well, but he can do more.

Of course, there are players with their difficulties in fighting, there always will be. Motivate those with greater rewards. Make more precise tutorial about how to fight. No killboxes. This is not the right answer. Thrill them with more challenges - that's what players want that's what they're playing for.
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Alenerel

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Re: Killing killboxes.
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2018, 03:56:01 PM »

This is my situation. Im building a 2nd perimeter cause I dont have enough clearance to shoot properly in my inner one. Problem Im finding is that I want to build the wall in red. Its purpose is to make that all enemies that come north go to the left (its opened in the left) so i can defend that single flank only instead of all the north flank... Would be that cheating?

These are actual real tactics used in real combat... But I cannot help but to feel like cheating. And this is important for me cause when I stick to a kind of game play I need strict rules.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/916926144389181585/3F4E242C92DDD48ECAA950C89ADBC9DA557CADCD/
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