Unstable build feedback thread

[ashaffee]

As for kill box I tried it and saw it still has uses to dwindle down number. Personally I don't like using them. I do like walling off my entire base though, which forces raiders to split up a little too much. I can just send my forces around to turn a 20 vs 10 raid into a 10 vs 3-5 in small areas.

Something odd about raiders is they sometimes send a few troops to buildings far away from my base if I claim them or built outpost(unmanned).

As for centipedes, I think the issue people are having is not realizing that the best strategy for them is brawlers with blunt weapons. A tool tip would help people understand that without removing a cool dynamic that makes melee useful.

[Madman666]

Damn, that door change is just atrocious, 140 hp on steel door is bad enough, but wood ones are just a decoration. 56 hp on a door. Like seriously. A bush (!) has twice as much hp. I am quite tempted to just wall myself in completely and only dig out a way outside when i need it.

[ChJees]

On the comment of killboxes: There are way too many sapper raids now instead. Not that I had a problem with them in the first place. But I find the lack of variety boring. Can we not have one raiding group that is ill informed of the player defenses for once ?

And on the topic of turrets, i find it disheartening when my autocannon turrets can't hit a Centipede at the end of their max range. Not like its a small target exactly. Also noticing they are lacking in accuracy in general. If anything their best use is to put enemies in cover so you can backstab them from behind.
In fact I find it rare to see turrets kill anything. My colonists do the grunt work for that.

Also IEDs seems to be thing now. Force the enemy into cover and watch the boom!

[Namsan]

Also, considering it, I'm not seeing a ton of reports about killboxes. Why is that? Are the new raid strategies making it no longer worth it? Or are y'all just trying to do something different? Have killboxes been successfully reduced to a non-dominating (but still effective) strategy?

I built a small killbox in my base, but it's not effective anymore.
Because most of raids are now sappers. Sappers ignore killboxes in most of the time.

[Perq]

Hmmm, maybe not all that useful feedback, haven't done all that much playing yet.

I'm not using killboxes at all and I don't find new autocannon that much useful. It uses a lot of energy and in most cases becomes useless quite quickly. For how much it costs it does very little, at least in the uses cases I've had so far.
I should probably do a little bit more.
My main problem with this turret is how easy it is to overwhelm - one guy with shield belt can get rid of such turret.

So while I like that melee now locks in melee combat, I'm unsure if turrets new similar treatment. Maybe if you get to point-blank range it makes sense, but I think that autocannon's minimal range is too big now. I'd say make all turrets unable to shoot targets that are in point-blank range. This way they still cannot defend on their own, but won't be as easily overwhelmed.
Maybe what we need is some sort of barbed wire that slows down pawns (maybe hurt them a little, dunno) but don't provide cover? Sand bags feel kinda pointless in that regard, because while they slow down advance, they also provide cover.

Quests still seem to be underwhelming. The amount of food needed to travel is usually worth more than rewards for doing it. I don't really find myself excited about quests coming in, don't really do all that much of them.

Capturing prisoners on the field (attacking bases or random encounters) is still clunky and kinda unreliable.
I think we should be able to take prisoners without any room - just tie them down and drag along with you. Be it in the field or in your base. Room requirement makes it kinda weird.

Using sleeping bags while in the field is kinda clunky - you have to unpack them (which includes finding them on whoever is carrying them), order pawns to place them and only then they are useful. Not sure if it is worth to implement a separate system of using them, but it feels kinda clunky (side note: not sure if that is a thing, but do pawns get better sleep if you have sleeping bags with you?)

[Crow_T]

A QoL improvement to look into is making the machining table list a bit more organized, with the addition of prosthetics it's pretty long. Submenus like Guns/Armor/Explody/Prosthetics is a consideration, or add a separate prosthetics bench, IMO steel+silver+components would be a good recipe.

Scythers are really vulnerable to traps, I think a cool solution to this would be to reverse the order in which mechs attack, the scythers can hold back behind the tanky centipedes until the centipedes are either engaged with the base or downed.  The centipedes could sweep the traps while the charge lancers can provide cover from snipers. I had a charge lance only raid which aggressively tried to break down walls, it'd make more sense if they stayed outside of the base in scouting/harassment mode. It'd also be a lot harder because you'd have to potentially leave the base to engage.

I kind of like that some raids don't flee, I think fleeing conditions could be randomized for some unpredictability, eg flee if 50%-99% are downed, favor the 75% range.

[Broken Reality]

About killboxes.

Like others have said killboxes seem redundant. Most of the raids I got as soon as i finished my perimeter wall were sappers. Now my old tactic to deal with sapper raids was insanity lances once my colony was wealthy enough, now however that tactic is useless (except to get rid of doomsday wielders) due to other raiders taking over the sapper role.

My usual early defences are a perimeter wall with doors space regularly to provide firing points and now with the prevalence of sappers then ways to kill some off before they breach is very helpful. But now doors are a risk due to their now nerfed health. So killboxes feel useless, walls with doors are a security risk, now need multiple defensive points inside your perimeter wall due to sapper raids and other raids splitting up and attacking from multiple sides this means you need more space inside your perimeter to allow for more defences. Pawns with low combat+ no passion and pacifists feel even more of a burden.

Not sure how I am going to handle base defense right now, possibly several choke point entrances and scattered turrets inside the perimeter, the autocannon don't feel worth the cost and upkeep.

[Oblitus]

Also, considering it, I'm not seeing a ton of reports about killboxes. Why is that? Are the new raid strategies making it no longer worth it? Or are y'all just trying to do something different? Have killboxes been successfully reduced to a non-dominating (but still effective) strategy?

I'd like to know, because it'll inform how I balance turrets going forward.

Currently, killbox only can be made if you are under the overhead mountain with outer walls at least 10 tiles thick. Most raids are now either sappers or sieges (out of 7 big raids in my 200 days colony 3 were sappers, 3 were sieges and one was drop pods right on my base), and the best way to counter them is a bunch of snipers. And, since now infestations give a warning and some time to prepare, you have absolutely no reason to live outside, where you can get a mechanoid rain on your head any time.

Still, using deadfall traps proves to be kinda viable if you set them in routes where the incoming raid will likely move - around natural obstacles and such. Though traps are nerfed hard, so it takes 3-4 steel traps to take down a single raider.

Turrets are expensive and weak (well, autocannons are kinda ok in terms of power, but dead zone and maintenance cost are discouraging), but they make great decoys to draw enemy fire.

[JimmyAgnt007]

I will never NOT use killboxes for my Mountain Fortress.  And thats OK I think.  Turrets do still feel underpowered.  Also, I would like the ability to manually order a barrel replaced.  If I have a turret thats almost at 0 at the end of a battle, it seems silly that you cant just fix it up.  I think barrels should be crafted separately, at the machine table or something.  Let its construction material dictate how many shots you get from it.  That way you can have a stockpile of them.  Then you can smelt the old ones back into metal.  Regardless, the killbox I made recently works fine.  Instead of sappers though, why not just have the raiders camp outside the kill box and ambush you?  Even if they dig into my fort they will die easy, so let them pen me in or something.  No forage, outdoor farming, and maybe trade caravans wont show up if they are there.   Distant sieges dont mean much to me when Ive got everything under thick mountain roof.

[Sirsir]

Smaller killboxes on each side GENERALLY works out okay on open maps. It makes the trap versions much more expensive tho.

Of course I've always played mountains, drop raids were always more irritating to me than Infestations even at their prime. (And the new smooth walls thing is awesome)

[Teutorix]

Am i misunderstanding something from the changelog?

The only way to get masterwork and legendary items is through inspiration now? Iv'e just had a crafter produce a masterwork parka with no inspiration.

[Bones]

Also, I would like the ability to manually order a barrel replaced.

But you can, if the barrel has been used, right click on the turret and there is a rearming option. I think it always use 60 steel.

[BlackSmokeDMax]

...  I think barrels should be crafted separately, at the machine table or something.  Let its construction material dictate how many shots you get from it.  That way you can have a stockpile of them.  Then you can smelt the old ones back into metal. ...

That sounds like a mod just waiting to happen!

[bbqftw]

The real answer is that mass turreting was just a popular, not necessarily effective strategy (even in b18).

On CL or tribal extreme, the decisive threats were typically  always type that was non killboxable (late year 1 siege w/ multiple BAR/sniper or sapper), and generally hit in timing where turret research was tight. Defeating these decisive raids practically = winning position.

On significantly easier difficulties, you could do whatever you want and still win. So polling those actions is going to tell you next to nothing about actual utility.

To reiterate - what is popular is not always strong. Typically the only exception is pvp games with matchmaking rating, which allow a semi objective way to select for effective strategy.

PS. Is it possible to provide information about raid point generation changes  for 1.0? There is some curiosity whether there is a significantly larger wealth-independent time scaling factor on raid strength now.

[BlackSmokeDMax]

Forgot to mention a few days ago that I noticed the functionality of Butchering is now similar to how it is with the  "Butchers Can Count Meat" mod

No more "butcher forever", at least early game.

Great Change, thanks!!