Unstable build feedback thread

[Golden]

I'm finding that the initial cost of all the walls and floors on a new map is excessive.  Tynan, why did you add this in?  Why is that included in my town's worth?  Please give a reason for this change.  I also assume that if there are any hidden caches of ancient items that they are also added in.

Please consider removing this and making it only add to the colony's wealth if you claim the construction or if you deconstruct it down to the blocks.  And please don't add the special items inside the ancient buildings until they are opened.

[5thHorseman]

I'm finding that the initial cost of all the walls and floors on a new map is excessive.  Tynan, why did you add this in?  Why is that included in my town's worth?  Please give a reason for this change.  I also assume that if there are any hidden caches of ancient items that they are also added in.

I'm not Tynan but I know why they were added. It was possible (and common) for players to limit their wealth while improving their colony by "paving the streets with gold" as the saying goes. Why put a huge statue in your town square when it means the raiders who show up at the door will be better equipped, and you can instead slather gold and silver floors everywhere and get a huge beautification boost while LOWERING your wealth?

As floors aren't "owned" the only practical way to implement this was to count all the floors on the map. I assume they added walls too as a "why not?" but don't know for sure.

This only counts things you can see, so things in ancient tombs and hidden valleys in mountains do NOT count. This was tested by a player, though I don't know in which thread. Possibly this very one.

While I don't really mind it myself as a thing, and don't consider it a bug (the stuff IS there and it IS worth money and raiders might want to come and take it) I do know that the Cassandra Rough NB runs I've done since the change sent harder enemies my way. Harder enough that I've yet to successfully get out of the first phases of NB (2nd colonist, relatively safe compound) without dying even though - RNG screw aside - I was getting pretty comfortable with it before the change.

I would be happy with a re-balance of the initial threat curve, to make the game play roughly the same as before.

Maybe an early-game raid type, "Floor thieves" who pick a random floor on the map. Their goal is only to rip it up and leave. If you leave them alone they leave you alone.

[The Nickman]

I've noticed that you can't smooth a wall on a diagonal, although the diagonal still contributes to the room's overall beauty.  Any chance that this can be fixed?  If I recall correctly, you used to not be able to build a wall on the diagonal, but you can now.  I'd assume it's the same kind of mechanic.

Otherwise it's really fiddly to have to mine out another section of wall, smooth the corner, and then build a wall in the spot you mined out.

[podium86]

Sorry, let me elaborate on my point
I understand that the default temps for a pawn is 16-26 naked
With a tribal wear in tribal start it is -9.9 min/+9.9max

So i started a tribal run on a regular temperate forest map which starts at 6 degrees, filled in a room and built a campfire which took it to 28 degrees interior.
Now this is the question, whether it is intended behavior to require BOTH a cooler and campfire just to fix the interior temps for a 6 degree exterior environment for a tribal start?

[zizard]

I'm not Tynan but I know why they were added. It was possible (and common) for players to limit their wealth while improving their colony by "paving the streets with gold" as the saying goes. Why put a huge statue in your town square when it means the raiders who show up at the door will be better equipped, and you can instead slather gold and silver floors everywhere and get a huge beautification boost while LOWERING your wealth?

As floors aren't "owned" the only practical way to implement this was to count all the floors on the map. I assume they added walls too as a "why not?" but don't know for sure.

This only counts things you can see, so things in ancient tombs and hidden valleys in mountains do NOT count. This was tested by a player, though I don't know in which thread. Possibly this very one.

While I don't really mind it myself as a thing, and don't consider it a bug (the stuff IS there and it IS worth money and raiders might want to come and take it) I do know that the Cassandra Rough NB runs I've done since the change sent harder enemies my way. Harder enough that I've yet to successfully get out of the first phases of NB (2nd colonist, relatively safe compound) without dying even though - RNG screw aside - I was getting pretty comfortable with it before the change.

I would be happy with a re-balance of the initial threat curve, to make the game play roughly the same as before.

Maybe an early-game raid type, "Floor thieves" who pick a random floor on the map. Their goal is only to rip it up and leave. If you leave them alone they leave you alone.

Definitely immersion breaking for a legitimate early game task to be "defloor the whole map".

[RawCode]

defloring map will move floor cost into stockpile cost and won't cause major effect btw

it just neh to see 5k building cost when you just landed naked in middle of nowhere

[zizard]

Better to build with than getting fresh materials though.

[dogthinker]

Sorry, let me elaborate on my point
I understand that the default temps for a pawn is 16-26 naked
With a tribal wear in tribal start it is -9.9 min/+9.9max

So i started a tribal run on a regular temperate forest map which starts at 6 degrees, filled in a room and built a campfire which took it to 28 degrees interior.
Now this is the question, whether it is intended behavior to require BOTH a cooler and campfire just to fix the interior temps for a 6 degree exterior environment for a tribal start?

Three existing solutions I use for managing heat in early game:

• Use torches instead of campfires, they raise the temperature less
• Or use a campfire, but leave the front door open to let some of the heat escape
• Use vents and/or open doors to share the heat from one heat source amongst multiple rooms. Vents are more efficient and avoid disturbed sleep debuff, but cost metal that might be in short supply (e.g. if you play NB.)

[Roolo]

As far as I know, the initial building wealth issue has already been addressed.
I cannot find it back but I recall Tynan saying something about the boundaries being adjusted to take into account the newly introduced initial wealth. Shortly after that, this update note followed:

Quick new build is going up. This one should re-adjust the expectations boundaries to count floor wealth

So I think the issue is more or less solved already. I can imagine the solution is standardized and doesn't take into account the initial wealth of individual maps (just theorizing here, I don't know this), but even if it is implemented that way, I think it's a fine solution for a really minor problem that already had way too much attention.

[RawCode]

it's "eyesore" that mess with graph in history tab.

issue is not calculation itself, issue is graph.

[Wanderer_joins]

I've done at least 4 of them by now with no issue, 5th one has a manhunter ambush with 12+ foxes vs 2 people. I'm thinking "fuck, they're probably gonna get downed." I start getting extra pods built to send in reinforcements with my melee dudes to rescue these two.

The caravan people go down, the scenario map is force-closed and I'm told that the caravan was lost.

This actually kinda pissed me off, because I just lost both my best builder and miner to something that could of been salvageable, but the game decided that scenario was done and therefore they're lost forever. It's not like they died from a mid-caravan ambush, they were downed in a static spot where I could of easily sent in reinforcements if it wasn't for the fact the game auto-closed it.

These scenario maps should not auto-close at all unless all colony pawns are dead or taken off-map. If I wasn't running commitment mode for this, I probably would of reverted to a previous save. If you want to push for commitment mode as the 'default' mode, these kinds of situations need looked at so the player doesn't feel like they were just cheated out of an interesting situation.

Iirc in A16, temp maps used to be open until everyone was killed. The problem which has been reported as a bug several times since, is that pirates/ tribespeople didn't eat and starved to death. So players had defeated an enemy base because a wounded alpaca was down in the temp map and enemies starved to death and fought each other before the alpaca died...

The simple solution is to force close temp maps when your pawns are down. It makes some sense with humanoid enemies, but mechanoids don't eat and manhunter ambushes on caravan are closed in 24h anyway. So i'd be to force close temp maps when colonists are down only against pirates or tribespeople ^{and would love to know in which base they're kept prisoners}

Quick new build is going up. This one should re-adjust the expectations boundaries to count floor wealth

So I think the issue is more or less solved already. I can imagine the solution is standardized and doesn't take into account the initial wealth of individual maps (just theorizing here, I don't know this), but even if it is implemented that way, I think it's a fine solution for a really minor problem that already had way too much attention.

I think he was talking about the expectations mood buffs. But the wealth curve has also been adjusted and the 14000 first wealth points are free, so enough to cover the scattered ruins.

[Golden]

I'm finding that the initial cost of all the walls and floors on a new map is excessive.  Tynan, why did you add this in?  Why is that included in my town's worth?  Please give a reason for this change.  I also assume that if there are any hidden caches of ancient items that they are also added in.

I'm not Tynan but I know why they were added. It was possible (and common) for players to limit their wealth while improving their colony by "paving the streets with gold" as the saying goes. Why put a huge statue in your town square when it means the raiders who show up at the door will be better equipped, and you can instead slather gold and silver floors everywhere and get a huge beautification boost while LOWERING your wealth?

As floors aren't "owned" the only practical way to implement this was to count all the floors on the map. I assume they added walls too as a "why not?" but don't know for sure.

This only counts things you can see, so things in ancient tombs and hidden valleys in mountains do NOT count. This was tested by a player, though I don't know in which thread. Possibly this very one.

While I don't really mind it myself as a thing, and don't consider it a bug (the stuff IS there and it IS worth money and raiders might want to come and take it) I do know that the Cassandra Rough NB runs I've done since the change sent harder enemies my way. Harder enough that I've yet to successfully get out of the first phases of NB (2nd colonist, relatively safe compound) without dying even though - RNG screw aside - I was getting pretty comfortable with it before the change.

I would be happy with a re-balance of the initial threat curve, to make the game play roughly the same as before.

Maybe an early-game raid type, "Floor thieves" who pick a random floor on the map. Their goal is only to rip it up and leave. If you leave them alone they leave you alone.

I do understand that.  However, why then is there a "claim" tool in the game if it has no use.  That should be what tells the AI about the floors and walls, that "I" own them, or maybe additionally if they are included in home areas that should inform the AI.  If I pave my colony in gold or silver, then those walls and floors are INSIDE my colony and "I" created them and of course the AI should count that.

Also, if they have never been discovered and are still covered by fog-of-war then they shouldn't be counted, as happens with the ancient dangers and places buried in mountains and large hills, or even out in the open if they don't have a break in the walls.

[Goldenpotatoes]

The main issue is that floors are technically terrain and are a completely separate concept compared to structures, which is why the claim tool has no effect on flooring.

I'd imagine fixing this issue would take a refactor on how that shit is handled and either might be too late into the build to be reasonable or too large to be worthwhile when you can just cover the cost to effectively nullify the extra wealth.

[Broken Reality]

I do understand that.  However, why then is there a "claim" tool in the game if it has no use.  That should be what tells the AI about the floors and walls, that "I" own them, or maybe additionally if they are included in home areas that should inform the AI.  If I pave my colony in gold or silver, then those walls and floors are INSIDE my colony and "I" created them and of course the AI should count that.

Also, if they have never been discovered and are still covered by fog-of-war then they shouldn't be counted, as happens with the ancient dangers and places buried in mountains and large hills, or even out in the open if they don't have a break in the walls.

The only use the claim tool has now is claiming turrets and doors etc on event maps. Otherwise yeah it is pretty useless.

[fecalfrown]

Build: .19
Hours: ~20 in last 3 days
Randy, Merciless, Naked Brutality (Tribal Start)
Permadeath
Temperate (short growing season)

Almost everything feels really good in terms of pacing, other than gaining weapons as a tribal. I'm sure it varies based on difficulty and storyteller, but I currently feel no need to research ANY weapons, they all come from raids. After getting plate armor and the various other tribal start requirements, my current tech path after electricity was:

Electricity>Batteries>Solar Panels>Air Conditioning>Microelectronics>Machining>Flak Armor

Next I need the moisture pump, which is why I took Microelectronics so early, but I can't see myself researching any weapons until I need to tech to turrets/autoturrets, and then another push late game when I want the charge lance. I liked the previous builds where the %hp of a weapon contributed to it's accuracy (and possibly damage?).

I'm slowly getting used to the deadfall trap change, but it still feels awkward. With how spread out traps are now, it feels like a lot of time spent hauling 30 steel at a crack to replace them. It also leads to other bizarre interactions:

>Builder gets there first, starts building. Hauler goes to grab the dead body at the trap location, builder stops, trip is wasted.
>Builder rebuilds the trap, dead body is still on the trap. Hauler now has to step on the trap to grab the body.

One other small note:
I see a -6 for 'organ harvested from prisoner' as well as a -9 for 'x2 organ harvested from prisoner'. Is the cumulative -15 intended?