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Author Topic: [A13] Combat Realism v.1.6.5 (08.05.16) Final release  (Read 567091 times)

Grimandevil

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #720 on: March 26, 2016, 05:01:29 PM »

@NIA: if there will be 'Individual calibers' system, it is still possible for ppl to edit guns' .xml to use one type of ammo. rather than have it by default.

personally i voted for Generic calibers
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NoImageAvailable

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #721 on: March 26, 2016, 05:34:53 PM »

Can you add a option so as to enable or disable ammunition? Maybe when you are creating a new colony? If not, ok.

@NIA: if there will be 'Individual calibers' system, it is still possible for ppl to edit guns' .xml to use one type of ammo. rather than have it by default.

personally i voted for Generic calibers

Its always possible to make these things optional but then I need to balance stats, market values, etc. around the idea of having ammo or not, as well as maintain all the separate files when I could instead just pick one version and concentrate on making it the best it can be. The option to tweak some XML files will remain open of course and if someone wants to make an alternate version I'll add it to the OP but I won't be providing them myself.

-snip-

First up, thanks for taking the time to write some detailed arguments, it does help a lot when balancing these things. You raise an interesting point regarding loot commonality and I'll have to factor that into my playtesting once it gets that far. Regarding crafting the general idea is to have regular ammo types be easily obtainable through crafting. I don't intend for there to be shortages of regular rifle or pistol ammo except in exceptional circumstances. More advanced ammo types like charge rifle or HE ammo will be limited by requiring more exotic ingredients such as plasteel or explosives harvested from boomalopes.

Something I'm undecided on is whether or not to limit crafting by requiring purchase of some kind of toolkit first (if you ever used Apparello, it has the same principle with blueprints). I am also considering adding gun crafting requiring the same toolkits and a weapon degradation mechanic but that's still up in the air, ammo crafting is definitely coming in some form or another.
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falconbunker

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #722 on: March 26, 2016, 06:03:28 PM »

ok noimage, thanks for replying, keep up the good work
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Devon_v

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #723 on: March 26, 2016, 07:26:04 PM »

I voted for individual calibers, though it took a lot of thinking on it.

Ultimately I guess if damage is directly tied to caliber, then guns would be all about weight, rate of fire, and accuracy. The idea that a really good weapon requires an obscure ammunition is interesting. (Talking Charge Rifles, Burning Suns, etc)

In vanilla, I would absolutely go with individual calibers. With mods it gets fuzzy considering how many different bullets you might end up juggling.

If this means that enemies will eventually exhaust their ammunition during raids it could be a big boon to Brawlers.
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Goldenpotatoes

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #724 on: March 26, 2016, 09:31:58 PM »

I'd much rather see simplified ammo as the thought of another level of micromanagement for a colony is rather painful, even more-so in situations where drop-in raids are even worse if you just so happen not to be carrying to correct caliber for that particular weapon.

I wouldn't see an issue if instead of adding different calibers for ammo variety, you keep the simplistic ammo (rifle, pistol, shotgun), but add in 'exotic' ammo that has varying effects (AP, hollow-point, ect) for each weapon genre. Keep the management to a point where you'd be swapping out ammo because you want a different effect, not because the several different calibers of bullet you'd need to stockhold for weapons on your colonists.
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nuschler22

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #725 on: March 26, 2016, 09:32:41 PM »

I'm having an issue with people randomly not being able to fire through embrasures.  I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if it's the mod.

About 1/4 will aim at targets fine and the other 3/4's will not.  After a battle, I tried to force fire at some wandering animals and it said that they could "not hit target."  They were well within range (only a few squares away outside the embrasure).  Once again, about 1/4 were able to force fire, the other 3/4 or so could not.

Edit: The last couple of games worked fine.  I have it setup with the embrasure, sandbags outside the embrasure and a moat.

Ideas?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 09:34:15 PM by nuschler22 »
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AllenWL

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #726 on: March 27, 2016, 12:08:19 AM »

First up, thanks for taking the time to write some detailed arguments, it does help a lot when balancing these things. You raise an interesting point regarding loot commonality and I'll have to factor that into my playtesting once it gets that far. Regarding crafting the general idea is to have regular ammo types be easily obtainable through crafting. I don't intend for there to be shortages of regular rifle or pistol ammo except in exceptional circumstances. More advanced ammo types like charge rifle or HE ammo will be limited by requiring more exotic ingredients such as plasteel or explosives harvested from boomalopes.

Something I'm undecided on is whether or not to limit crafting by requiring purchase of some kind of toolkit first (if you ever used Apparello, it has the same principle with blueprints). I am also considering adding gun crafting requiring the same toolkits and a weapon degradation mechanic but that's still up in the air, ammo crafting is definitely coming in some form or another.
If I understand it right, before you can make a gun/ammo, you need to get the toolkit for it, after which you can make as much as you want as long as you have the resources, and simple ammo is craftable from the start?
So if I wanted say, armor-piercing rounds, I'd need to buy the kit to unlock the ability(but not buy a kit per crafting session), but if I wanted normal rounds, I can just make them?
I'm guessing your goal is  you might lose because your soldier had no bullets, but you won't lose because you(the colony as a whole) had no bullets?
Sounds like a good idea, and it would certainly make sticking with one type of gun be a lot better.

Also, if kits are implanted, I think what'll most likely happen is your level of combat will go through about three stages.

The 'early' stage where you're not quite ready to craft ammo and get by scavenged weapons/ammo and melee weapons. You might run out of ammo if you're not careful, but probably not.
Rather than trying to get more ammo, you'll probably just pick up whichever has more bullets left

During the 'mid' stage, you won't be short on ammo, but still probably use a mix of guns rather then trying to give everyone the same gun, simply crafting ammo for existing guns rather than making/buying the same gun 'brand' for everyone. Some guns would probably get dropped at this point.
Ex: We have two rifle A's, two B's, and three C's. Rather then exchange A and B for two more C's, we just keep them all stocked, C taking priority, and rifle D, which we only have one of, is dropped.

Then the 'final' stage. Probably after you get some advanced ammo kits. From this point, sticking to one gun 'brand' per type would be best, as you can outfit every gun with advanced ammo, rather then having some guns with advanced ammo and some without.
Ex: We get an armor-piercing round kit for rifle B, and change all our rifles to B so every riflemen can have armor-piercing rounds without buying more kits.
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nuschler22

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #727 on: March 27, 2016, 04:12:39 PM »

I'm having an issue with people randomly not being able to fire through embrasures.  I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if it's the mod.

About 1/4 will aim at targets fine and the other 3/4's will not.  After a battle, I tried to force fire at some wandering animals and it said that they could "not hit target."  They were well within range (only a few squares away outside the embrasure).  Once again, about 1/4 were able to force fire, the other 3/4 or so could not.

Edit: The last couple of games worked fine.  I have it setup with the embrasure, sandbags outside the embrasure and a moat.

Ideas?


Anyone?
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NoImageAvailable

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #728 on: March 27, 2016, 04:25:00 PM »

I'd much rather see simplified ammo as the thought of another level of micromanagement for a colony is rather painful, even more-so in situations where drop-in raids are even worse if you just so happen not to be carrying to correct caliber for that particular weapon.

Ammo management will be very hands-off for the most part. You'll be able to set loadouts which function the same way as outfits, so your pawns will automatically stock up on whatever ammo you told them to get and mid-battle you'll be able to switch between all ammo types you're currently carrying. Unless you use up all of it during the battle or your entire colony runs out you won't get into many situations where individual pawns have nothing to shoot with.

I'm having an issue with people randomly not being able to fire through embrasures.  I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if it's the mod.

About 1/4 will aim at targets fine and the other 3/4's will not.  After a battle, I tried to force fire at some wandering animals and it said that they could "not hit target."  They were well within range (only a few squares away outside the embrasure).  Once again, about 1/4 were able to force fire, the other 3/4 or so could not.

Edit: The last couple of games worked fine.  I have it setup with the embrasure, sandbags outside the embrasure and a moat.

Ideas?

Embrasures are currently bugged and don't play nice with the AI. Sometimes pawns won't lean out properly to shoot from behind an embrasure in which case putting them directly behind it helps. I could probably give a more in-depth response if you posted a screenshot of your setup. Regarding animals you have to keep in mind that if they're small they might end up being obscured by high cover.
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NoImageAvailable

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #729 on: March 28, 2016, 05:57:13 PM »

Quick progress update here, the inventory system is now more or less fully functional and some good progress on the ammo system was made. On reload pawns will now load the last equipped ammo type. If they don't have ammo of that type they try to switch to another. If they don't have any they'll equip another gun that does have ammo. If they're completely out they'll switch to a melee weapon or resort to fisticuffs as last resort. So you could see a raider fire a rocket launcher, switch to a PDW, fire all his ammo and finally pull out a knife and charge you.

In related news, fluffy, whom you may remember from such mods as Colony Manager and Enhanced Tabs is doing the UI for the inventory display and loadout manager. Here are some very early WIP screenshots so you guys can get an idea of what the final thing might look like.
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player13

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #730 on: March 31, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »

I don't see any of the defense-mod turrets as buildable under the security menu when starting a new game. I have both the mods loaded appropriately as per the instructions and no errors are generated. What am I doing wrong?
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Headshotkill

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #731 on: March 31, 2016, 07:23:10 PM »

I don't see any of the defense-mod turrets as buildable under the security menu when starting a new game. I have both the mods loaded appropriately as per the instructions and no errors are generated. What am I doing wrong?

In this mod you don't "build" turrets, you buy them from a weapons dealer and plop them down like statues.
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AllenWL

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #732 on: April 01, 2016, 05:15:37 AM »

Quick progress update here, the inventory system is now more or less fully functional and some good progress on the ammo system was made. On reload pawns will now load the last equipped ammo type. If they don't have ammo of that type they try to switch to another. If they don't have any they'll equip another gun that does have ammo. If they're completely out they'll switch to a melee weapon or resort to fisticuffs as last resort. So you could see a raider fire a rocket launcher, switch to a PDW, fire all his ammo and finally pull out a knife and charge you.

In related news, fluffy, whom you may remember from such mods as Colony Manager and Enhanced Tabs is doing the UI for the inventory display and loadout manager. Here are some very early WIP screenshots so you guys can get an idea of what the final thing might look like.
Is 'weight' and 'bulk' is the sum of all items/clothes on the pawn that'll slow them down? This will make making sense of that 'movement speed penalty X%' thing a lot easier to tell.
I'm guessing the reason for their addition is because of the fact that pawns can carry more guns, need to carry ammo, and can carry misc melee weapons and grenades as well, making that penalty thing a lot more complicated to figure out?

Also, I just realized something. With ammo, does this mean that in extreme cases, you can just hunker down till the enemy uses up all their bullets, then attack when they resort to melee? How will this work with enemies using weapons that use lots of bullets(like a centipede with a minigun)?
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NoImageAvailable

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #733 on: April 01, 2016, 06:15:12 AM »

Is 'weight' and 'bulk' is the sum of all items/clothes on the pawn that'll slow them down? This will make making sense of that 'movement speed penalty X%' thing a lot easier to tell.
I'm guessing the reason for their addition is because of the fact that pawns can carry more guns, need to carry ammo, and can carry misc melee weapons and grenades as well, making that penalty thing a lot more complicated to figure out?

Also, I just realized something. With ammo, does this mean that in extreme cases, you can just hunker down till the enemy uses up all their bullets, then attack when they resort to melee? How will this work with enemies using weapons that use lots of bullets(like a centipede with a minigun)?

Weight and bulk are calculated from the equipped weapon, worn apparel and anything in the pawn's inventory. Weight is the physical weight of an item and limited by the pawn's movement capacity (so being shot in the leg reduces your weight limit) and I'm considering adding a new pawn skill as well (i.e. along with cooking, growing, shooting, etc. you'd have a skill "Endurance" that would increase by carrying heavy loads). Bulk represents how "bulky" and uncomfortable an item would be to carry (e.g. an assault rifle with a folding stock would be less bulky than one with a fixed stock) and maximum bulk is increased by wearing things like backpacks and tactical vests. These will be worn on top of the shell layer so you can still wear parkas and such with a backpack.

The current move/workspeed penalties on guns are supposed to represent their weight currently and will be removed with the new system. Instead being near your weight/bulk limit will impart penalties to move/workspeed respectively. The idea is for one to put a limit on the amount of gear pawns can carry and also the same as behind the speed penalties on guns. That is, it encourages you to keep a light load where feasible. In the vanilla game if you have someone with 0 shooting and cataracts it still makes sense to give him a charge rifle and armor vest if you have some to spare, simply because there is no reason not to. With weight penalties you only want to give him a pistol for self-defense at most. It introduces loadout variety and gives a niche to otherwise weak weapons. In combat it helps tribals get an edge on well-equipped colonists by being faster and also allows for things like giving a pawn an SMG and light ammo load to turn him into a fast flanker as opposed to loading him to the maximum.

You can theoretically hunker until the enemy is out of ammo. The problem is the AI is smart enough not to shoot targets they can't hit (certain vanilla bugs not withstanding) so you'd have to somehow survive the AI firing thousands of bullets at you unscathed and at that point you'd probably be better of just killing them first. Once the AI overhaul gets done the AI will be smart enough to retreat when out of ammo but that's still a ways off.

As for miniguns, one of the reasons I want to introduce ammo is specifically to balance ammo-draining weapons like miniguns. If a Centipede has 100kg of carrying capacity and 40kg are taken up by the minigun it would have room for 2400 rounds. At 300 rounds per burst you could sit out 8 bursts and then not have to worry because the Centipede is out of ammo. Of course the downside to this strategy is you have to sit out and survive 8 bursts from a minigun. The same goes for the player too, if you're using machine guns against tribals you can simply go full auto and spray them with fire but it will cost you in ammo, so you need to balance volume of fire against ammo consumption.
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AllenWL

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Re: [A12] Combat Realism v.1.5.0 (20.03.16) The Great Rebalancing
« Reply #734 on: April 01, 2016, 06:53:51 AM »

When you say 'AI is smart enough not to shoot at targets they can't hit', does this include targets who are suppressed? Because I remember my pawns shooting a raider who was suppressed and hiding behind a wall where they couldn't actually hit him.

Three quick questions- Will bows use arrows as ammunition, will there be 'special' arrows(ex: flaming arrow), and will pila be a throwable item like grenades?

Also, aimed shot is very nice when hunting.
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