How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[Johnny Masters]

Of course the real issue is that there is no incentive to build an external base. The main problem is that given the choice of internal or external there will always be a tendency to build internal so long as the danger of being outside is higher than the danger of being inside. This only becomes a problem when the game is being balanced for the most defensible position.

Yes, hence why we should give challenges to dwarfers or make it a technological goal.
Or, in gaming terms,  building outside would be Tier 1 and inside Tier 2-3. To achieve higher tiers you need investment.

The last thing we need is to punish mountain bases. This, I think, we mostly agree upon. Adding some legitimate threats to a mountain base that are unique to a mountain base would be a great idea though. Balance out the risk versus reward equation. Mountain bases should be a little more difficult to build; whether this is more time spent at the start up, or more resources to make the area nicer. After all, rough cut stone is not a comfortable look.

Agreed. But then again, some will think that adding challenges to building inside are akin to nerfing/tearing down dreams.

-Earthquakes: I really like the idea of earthquake events. They can damage walls and possibly structures like geothermal plants and solar arrays. And if these walls are load bearing then there is the chance of roof collapses. In the case of a mountain base the threat of collapse is greater since the amount of roof is simply greater.

I really like diversity, i like events diversity and i like the idea of earthquake. But i don't want earthquakes to be the defining method to balance dwarfing, mainly because it would mean it has to be relatively regular to prose a threat or a balance per se, which would the make it annoying to build inside, and i want to keep building inside (when i want my game that way).

Quality over quantity: Decrease raider party sizes; increase armaments or strategies. Currently there is a feeling that we have to build up to be defensive and deal with large waves of raiders. It simply becomes too much effort to not build some manner of kill box. When we feel the need to exploit AI pathing and behaviour in order to just survive then the threat level is maybe too high.

Agreed. I've rallied this a few times by now and i'll keep doing it, like now

On the note of sieges I would also like to see the siege camps produce their own food. Or be resupplied if possible. Currently I have never had a siege that felt like a threat. I knew it would always collapse on itself (or at the select fire of my snipers).

I don't know how much of a threat should sieges be, my motto is to keep it diverse. Perhaps the raiders might just want to demoralize you or bluff to get some sort of tribute in return. Other times it should be a full blown siege, perhap's more than one camp. 
I never seen them going out of food, but i wouldn't mind they leaving after food is gone.

*Every event doesn't need to end like a last stand epic shootout*

Conversely, there could be some sort of courier that would drop'em food and medkits from time to time. It could even open way to things like keeping some of your guys as skirmishers to intercept said couriers and make the siege last less.

Also there could be some kind of building called a "tent" (ohhh). A makeshift installation so the raiders could sleep inside and get treated from injuries. Of course, you as well could be able to produce tents, as earlier cover or in latter implementations, our own raiding other factions

Also, I am under the impression that many of these things are already going to change in the upcoming alpha but doesn't hurt to share our thoughts. It's said all the time but it cannot be said enough: Tynan, you are awesome and amazing. Keep up the good work.

Although there are a ton of duplicate suggestions, it's better to repeat yourself than to refrain from posting a cool idea.
This Tynan guy (heh), does look pretty amazing!

[EarthyTurtle]

Indeed, the problem is that walling works and can't really be broken by any of the current events. I suggest an event that breaks walling yourself in.
This would be truly diabolical (which is why I like it so much) to players who choose to wall themselves in. Why not have enemy raiders build a kind of mobile drilling rig? If anyone has seen the cartoon Avatar: last airbender they will remember the episode where the fire nation attacked the earth kingdom walls with a giant drill.

Obviously, what I am suggesting wouldn't nearly be to the same scale. maybe a smaller 2x3 or 3x4 drill on wheels.

But an event that got raiders to try build a portable drill that has to be built on site. It's vulnerable whilst being built, if you kill the raiders building it then you can claim it (like siege mortars). if it is complete however it'd be kinda like a modern day battering ram, slow moving and semi-resistant to bullet fire. It can be used to drill at speed through rock and walls to reach people's bases. If people wall themselves in, then they essentially wall off any chance of preventing this event and escape as well.

[JimmyAgnt007]

I like a lot of the stuff being posted, some of it repeats but more good ideas get through.  id be ok with mining taking a bit longer depending on the type of rock and technology you have available.  earthquakes would be neat.  and Raiders will be fixed over and over again as time goes on so they will get better. 

what about making walls more expensive to build underground?

[stefanstr]

I think that we should start by requiring building walls/floors underground. Currently, an underground base is simply too cheap material-wise.

At the moment, you are perfectly fine with stone walls and free smooth stone floors. Giving a strong mood debuff for naked stone walls and removing free smooth stone floors would go a long way towards balancing out costs between an outdoors base and a mountain one.

[JimmyAgnt007]

i never leave smooth stone floors, wooden is my flooring of choice.  and i always line my rooms and halls with metal walls.  its still easy.

[mrofa]

Hmm im not sure what you guys get in, playing on open is kinda hard yes, but its not immpossible. And at later point very enjoyable.
There was somewhere a post/thread named "Urban Combat", it was very good in explaning how to build in the open with combat tactic design in mind. And i must admit that after reading, my only vault dweler colony is the one that i test  my mod on. Everythign else go with open colony style.
Most people see it as hard since they got build up value about what best weapon is and kill boxes effectivnes.
But when it comes to the point where you got 10-20 colonists and you fight vs 500 raiders, most kill boxes will fail, best weapon wont be to good when your colonist need to stand and aim to long while getting shoot at.
As i did play quite alot of open colonies, this is what i seen.
-They are not kill box dependant(Mostly becouse such colony have many small intersection that are used as kill boxes)
-Damage to buildings/walls spreads thrugh whole colony and not only focused point, so at this point it kinda balance with vault colonies when you dont need to build walls at the start.
-Alot places to hide and alot covers(Double edge sword thrugh, but then again its a greate way to deal with base drops)
-20 Canepids < 2 guys with a bows and 2 set of doors
-More abilities to move and flank enemies, or just run away ^^
Biggest problem is managment of it all in combat, with 100-200 raiders its not so bad to dodge bullets, but 500 are kinda a problem, and in most cases i just leave the colony and attack from outside some straglers.
Now if i would have a suggetsion for it i would have 3 of them
-Limit number of raiders and friendlies that can be on the map at the same time.
-Detect how much of colony property is outside and how much of it is inside, and based on this add % higher number of raiders attack for outside colonies and lower for inside colonies (vaults are harder to spot), also due this it would also make higher chance of traders to visit a open colony and visitors.
-Small simple que for 2-3 actions, something like "pop up thrugh door"=>"take a shot on that guy"=>"go back thrugh doors".

[Johnny Masters]

the focus of this topic is to 'entice' pple to want to play in the open, not nerf the game so badly that pple don't have a choice in the matter, which this game is NOT about.

The focus of the topic, and i'm quoting the OP here is to  "start a thread where we could discuss how the game would have to change to entice us to play more open play styles."
Everyone is doing exactly that, discussing. Change could mean nerfing or buffing, replacing or reducing, adding or exlucing.

for folks who like the open, they will pick the plains, and those who want more cover/back support will go for hills and mountains. please don't discuss further on how to make these options useless. thanks!

I don't think anyone here is doing that. Everyone just want their share of the fun.
No, thank you!

as of now, it doesn't take long for a small number of raiders to knock down on doors or walls even to get to us, and if the option to have our backs into the mountain taken away or the proposed increased difficulty or danger thereof to dig into them just makes it too restricting to say the least, when RW itself isn't going Z-level in this century or the next, so a maze of hide-n-seek isn't really possible, all for the chance of surviving the crazy amount of raiders as we bloat in colony resource/wealth over time. i certainly hope that's what everyone is aiming towards... surviving.

if you think it's bad not digging in because raiders come not before long, think about building outside, that's how unbalanced it is now for building outside. No one is trying to "take away" anything, everyone loves to build stuff, be it outside or into mountains, but it has to be balanced. The goal of the game is to survive, but the goal of the player is to have fun. Fun, in this case, for me, means you (should) have more than one choice to build, aside digging a hole in a mountain, and digging a hole in a mountain should have it's challenges as well, because a game without challenge and conflict is a boring game.

This would be truly diabolical (which is why I like it so much) to players who choose to wall themselves in. Why not have enemy raiders build a kind of mobile drilling rig?

I like the way you think >

It makes sense that, since raiders can drop from outer space with orbital pods right into your backyard, they would employ such evil devices to counter vaults.

It goes hand in hand with how we want raiders to become more adaptable and smart about your play style, instead of using just sheer force.

BUT, it can't be a regular thing,  we don't want 200 raiders popping in into your dungeon every once in a while, just as we don't want 200 raiders dropping into our garden colony and ruining the perfect grass. Perhap's they are part of a larger force waiting outside, they have some kind of mission like destroying the generators or batteries, or stealing supplies and leaving?

I think that we should start by requiring building walls/floors underground. Currently, an underground base is simply too cheap material-wise.

At the moment, you are perfectly fine with stone walls and free smooth stone floors. Giving a strong mood debuff for naked stone walls and removing free smooth stone floors would go a long way towards balancing out costs between an outdoors base and a mountain one.

Yes! That's exactly my point, thanks for being more plainspoken than me. Building into mouintains is actually CHEAPER than building outside, where it would be, short of living in a cave, all the way around. You have to beat hardness, avoid cave ins, have proper foundations, etc. These at least should require someone with a 7 on mining or constructing (possibly both).

To build outside you need to chopp wood, produce stone blocks, mine metal, spend on floors and walls, whilst dwarfing you just pop holes and dust up the floor a little and voila.

The fact that you need way more materials and these increase colony wealth just adds insult to injury (more wealth = more raiders)

At least building proper walls should be needed.


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Jimmy:  I understand, that's what i do too, but it's still optional.

mrofa: The impossibility depends on the director and challenge intensity, the point is that building outside adds about 20-40% to the difficulty you chose.

I like the concept of urban warfare, i kinda have to do it when playing outside, but the game needs some more tools to make it happen better, such as embrasures, shoot through windows (if we had windows), some sort of automatic behavior to seek cover (think xcom cautious, defensive, agressive). Plus the AI shouldn't know where you pawns are, i don't know if the game would need a fog of war for that, that way you could have some pretty intense fightings, blitzkrieg style, house to house, setting ambushes and fleeing checkpoints.

-Detect how much of colony property is outside and how much of it is inside, and based on this add % higher number of raiders attack for outside colonies and lower for inside colonies (vaults are harder to spot), also due this it would also make higher chance of traders to visit a open colony and visitors.

I like this, it makes sense (see, i don't hate building in mountains, i just like things that makes sense ).
But that % would be for chance of attack right? not raider numbers? I mean, they could launch a few probing attacks, but once they realize "hey, there's some hi-tech vault there keeping us out, i wonder what they are keeping in, must be really valuable... WE WANT IT!", bam, full blown assault.

-Small simple que for 2-3 actions, something like "pop up thrugh door"=>"take a shot on that guy"=>"go back thrugh doors".

Could work, but might be too much micromanagement to make it worthwhile, specially if you have a large number of colonists. I  like the automatic behavior idea more. Set it to defensive it would look for the closest defensive position (wall corner, sandbag, whatever). Set it to agressive it would stay where it is and spray bullets. Set it to coward and it would try and flee from battle (but still take pot shots once in a while).




Regards,

[Darth Fool]

I think there are some improvements to the sieging AI that would help.  Having Mortars preferentially target other mortars, turrets, power sources, and doors/walls over the nearest colonist would make it harder to game.  A regular resupply of besiegers would also help prevent the waiting for them to starve/go insane tactic, although attacks to destroy their food supply would still be possible.  Perhaps they should have a drop-beacon which allows them to get resupplied until destroyed.   Enemies that learn where the kill boxes are and possibly choose to counter mine to avoid them would also be useful.  Allowing mortar fire/earthquakes to trigger cave ins would also be nice.  The chance for cave-ins should be proportional to the size of the room, so large rooms should be more vulnerable.  Cave monsters/mechanoids that could be unleashed by digging too deep would also be a good way to balance.  I would also consider eliminating hydroponics.  Without hydroponics, all bases would eventually need to access the outside to restock their food supplies, which seems more reasonable then trying to force them outside for power.

[stefanstr]

Removing hydroponics also crossed my mind. Or at least nerfing it (make it further down the research tree and/or make it LESS efficient than normal farming).

Some of the ideas in the recent posts that I especially like:
-automatic behavior patterns for drafted colonists (defensive, aggressive, etc.). I think that the raiders would also benefit from that addition, as they would get some more intelligent behaviors
-improvements to sieges - it has to be the most common suggestion in this thread: make mortars target power supplies/other mortars/turrets instead of colonists
-giving every raid (or at least some raids) a specific purpose: they are here to... (destroy the power generators, steal the food, burn down crops... you name it).

[Mystic]

I support the idea of slowing down the initial speed of mining quite a bit, and then having several levels of research to speed it up, with the top speed being something more like what we see now.

I also support the idea of making geothermal energy a bit less reliable. Not by the limited timespan method that was suggested in this thread, but via random events where geothermal vents stop producing steam for a period of time. In the real world, geothermal energy isn't constantly reliable - geysers have been known to stop working for extended periods of time as changes occur underground, and then suddenly start up again.  I would say that such events should be less common than eclipses ... but should also last a bit longer than eclipses.  Perhaps the onset of such events could even be coupled with the introduction of earthquakes to give the impression of an active geology at work in the world?

On the idea of encouraging open-air colony development as opposed to discouraging mountain lairs, it seems to me that one of the main things that would be more difficult for a walled-off colony is trade with one's neighbors.  (I know that I'd have a great deal more trepidation about visiting a reclusive, walled-in colony where I have to walk between machine gun nests even to just say "hi", as opposed to one that's out in the open.)  How about introducing better relations and additional trade opportunities for open-air colonies?  Perhaps enable some small quantities of trade with the groups that wander through the map on occasion?  If they have access to the heart of a colony, rather than just hanging out in the killbox entryway, it seems likely that they would consider the open-air colony to be a more friendly place than the shut-ins of the mountain colony up the road, and hence would bring some stuff along that could be traded?  E.g., perhaps they'd be willing to buy some raw materials, or sell some medicine or even a decent weapon now and then?

[JimmyAgnt007]

nerfing hydroponics is a bad idea, its actually supposed to be more efficient.  Just more costly to maintain.  maybe if water or fertilizer get implemented at some point.

what about cavein distances?  right now the default is 5, more than that and you get stuff falling.  what if regular rock had a distance of 2, wooden walls 3, stone 4, metal 5, and any stronger materials do more.  this way you can still do the dwarf but you got to be more careful and line everything with metal walls.  i do this anyways but it would slow things down if you havent much metal. 

[mrofa]

Anarak
The % would be only for the ammount of attacks and not the number, idea of this is to have some pros and cons for both vault and open colony.
Open colony is easier to spot and easier to access, thats why there will be more attack but then again you get more visitors and more traders.
On the other hand you get a vault which are build to be safe and in most cases atleast a bit hidden, thus this would be less times spoted by bands of raiders, but the same will be with traders and travlers.

On that note im still not sure if it wouldnt be better to have that the stuff that is in the open or under mountain also needs to be in home zone, this would give a player kinda versality on that front atleast a bit, and when you colony is destroyed and you would need to run you could just cancel the home zone on the destroyed one and built your self a vault, that would give you better chance of rebuilding/surviving.


As for macros, they would help for managing larger number of colonists in battles.

[Johnny Masters]

Reading about hydroponics, it's actually cheaper, even on water consumption, at least some of the many types of hydroponics. The investment to build inside would be spending on sunlamps. Plus, i want more things into RW, not fewer

I support geothermal instability. It doesn't even need to be related to event, it just constantly flow random amounts of power, a further incentive to build batteries or have back-up power. 

vaults = less encounters, more defense
open = more encounters, more trade
seems like a nice trade off. Open colonies would also get more immigration from other camps, should it be implemented.

mrofa: not sure i understand the home zone bit, care to elaborate?

Jimmy: Makes sense and would go hand-in-hand with having to build walls in the inner side of rocks (to improve mood).
There would be two things on this: roof type and support columns.
roof type depends on the wall type used to make the room (the majority of the wall material at least), so wood roofs would support/prevent cave-ins for a less number of squares than a metal one would. Then you would have to build some columns to support bigger rooms, i.e, a single piece of wall would increase the radius of the supporting roof for x squares.

[jaeden25]

I think everyone is missing the real problem here. I think the lack of defensive choice in turrets, their weakness to explosives, and their high cost to build are too blame. Currently I play on extreme and I only play outdoor colonies. Now I can survive attacks by big hordes of raiders and mechs. I do this by creating many layers of cover and turrets, but when faced with enemies that out-range my turrets and/or have explosives, they wreck everything pretty quickly. It is possible to survive equipping everyone with M24's and micromanaging to fall back through the cover and it is really fun and interesting to play actually.

The big problem however is how much is costs to rebuild the defence and the lack of metal around, so after a few attacks it's really hard to sustain enough defence due to the high cost of turrets to the point it's hardly even worth building them, at the moment I only build turrets to draw fire while I snipe the enemy. Not how it should be in my eyes.

Sieges are too hard to kill at the moment, when they are far away it's hard to get colonists to attack without them having mental breakdowns on big maps. We need a way to them to sustain their needs away from the colony, we have bedspots which are good, but we need some way of taking food reserve to camp out around the siege.
Also sieges are normally full of snipers so it's incredibly hard to do anything to stop them without getting killed straight away, which at the moment results in me not even bothering to try and kill the sieges. I literally stay in base and repair everything until they starve to death, not very fun.
The drone ships are ok but again I need some way to sustain myself out in the map otherwise I simply don't have the time to do much before my colonists break down.

[Johnny Masters]

I think everyone is missing the real problem here. I think the lack of defensive choice in turrets, their weakness to explosives, and their high cost to build are too blame.

Not THE real problem, but one of the problems nonetheless. It's not the real problem because if you had better turrets to make it easier to defend open colonies, it would make it even easier to defend inside ones.

It should be one of these: Or open colonies get as many advantages and drawbacks than mountain ones OR building into a mountain is a technological or economical investment. Currently it's neither.

Sieges are too hard to kill at the moment, when they are far away it's hard to get colonists to attack without them having mental breakdowns on big maps. We need a way to them to sustain their needs away from the colony, we have bedspots which are good, but we need some way of taking food reserve to camp out around the siege.

Like other things it depends on the AI director and challenge intensity, but i agree with the mental breakdowns and supplies.
I already suggested that there should be an  "ADRENALINE" mood buff whenever the pawn is within some radius of an enemy and even a small buff when it's drafted.

As per the supplies, I'm together with those who want a (better) slot system, be it general purpose slots or a tool slot or carry slot. Wanna go on the offensive? Pick a few provisions and hit the road. There could be even a new type of cookable/producible food that lasts longer and tastes like nutrient paste and is used in such incursions, perhaps even if someday we get to raid other camps as well. 

Overall i think the moral systems need a lot of reworking, i have a few ideas myself but let's wait for 7 and see what Ty has been cooking up.