Remove Turrets

[RoboticManiac]

If raids were to be scaled down in severity and frequency, in favour of other events and hard ships, I could see turrets getting spurned aside.

I agree with all the above arguments about removing auto turrets. We will ultimately need other defensive structures and strategies to deal with raids though.

Someone suggested bribes. I think this could be easily incorporated by having a message pop up similar to the "Person X is being chased" message, but this message would be "Group X is threatening to raid you if you do not pay Y amount of Silver" and you would have the option to send them the silver or get raided. Alternatively the message could appear in the middle of a raid, with the raiders saying they will leave if bribed.

Additionally more defensive structures will be needed. Something to slow down the hordes of primitives, like digging trenches or using barbed wire, otherwise it's too hard to prevent them from just bum rushing you once they reach a critical mass. Windows that you colonists can shoot from while inside their base could also be a thing. In general I would really like it if we could capture a sort of "seige" feeling where you fight at your outer walls/sandbags until forced to retreat, then fight from your base, until they bust in, and then fight from a deeper "keep" within your base as a last resort.

You can vaguely do something similar here and now with the usage of embrasures from mods. I tend to set up in a mountain 'valley' and have pillboxes littered everywhere with access through barricaded 'maintenance' tunnels. Though I do still use turrets to supplement my forces.

[Mihsan]

So with my colonies in A12 I have noticed that due to animals being added, the game is really a lot more reasonable to play without turrets.  I mean I still personally like them and use them.  But remembering Tynan not wanting them in earlier alphas due to several reasons maybe it is now time for them to go the way of the blasting charges.

Mostly I think the game is at a point where they could readily be removed with maybe some small re balances to raids and the game still be reasonable.

I want to see turrets in RimWorld. I hate them in their current state (exploding, killbox-encouraging, limited in use, free MG out of air steel).

The idea of defensive turret is inevitable for colony sim. It just need different approach IMO.

[A Friend]

I don't think removing turrets entirely is the right way to go about it.

IMO
* Before construction, turrets should first be researched. Turning them somewhat into a mid-late game defense.
* Turret research could be made in tiers or something. With each tier improving the turret's combat efficiency. For example, you researched the core of turrets. Now you must research multiple areas to make it better.

Tier I - Single shot turrets.
Tier II - Double shot turrets.
Tier III - The turrets we have now.
Tier IV - Turrets with four shots.

* Install-able turrets can be bought off combat traders for a hefty price.
* To fill in the defensive gap, manned gun nests are added in.

I think this would create the situation the OP wants while still satisfying the pro-turret crowd. Early on, colonists will be forced to confront raids themselves, bringing in risks of injury and death. Players would rely more on traps and tacticools. Steel traps specifically would see more use as the resources meant for early game turrets would instead be used for it.

[Menuhin]

So the primary reason I suggested this, is because previously Tynan had mentioned the want to remove turrets in response to the requests to upgrade them.  A while ago i would have agreed that the game was really not feasible without turrets.  But as the game has progressed and we now have other defense options with traps, ieds, and pets I think we are close (though maybe not quite there) to a point where we can remove them.

I don't necessarily think it'd be good to just flat out remove them.  But I do think for the next alpha it would be feasible to rebalance some of the raids, and maybe introduce a bit more defensive options to then remove turrets.

If nothing else, I do agree that requiring turrets to be manned would also add some benefit balance wise with them, though i think that could add some different problems.

[b0rsuk]

Raids are the only event that can truly kill you. It's the most destructive event, maybe next to flashstorm (potentially, if your base is not fireproof and you fail to build fire barriers in front of approaching fire). Comparing to Dwarf Fortress, it's as if only DF sieges could truly end your fort.

I've said this before, but I have a problem with how helpless many colonists you get are. If turrets are removed, I will probably become quite ruthless in colonist selection. If you are over 60, sorry you can't pull your weight and I won't take you.

A colonist with bad back, frail and two cataracts (and people over 60, 70 tend to be all of the above) he can't help the colony even as a medic, cook or animal handler. Bad eyes and bad manipulation make for a bad medic. Bad movement speed make for a bad animal handler, especially tamer. Slow work speed make bad artists, crafters, constructors. I'd rather have a colonist who can only shoot but do it well. Or even a melee specialist with good skills.

To wrap it up:
- many colonists come with no skill and no passion in guns
- defense via animals is experimental, requires a long set-up and not available in early game
- traps help with raids, but you need more. IEDs have the bad habit of damaging loot.

[FMJ Penguin]

here here....... it's the damn manipulation being tied to everything and hit too hard by everything or something....

If they actually had to releave themselves, they prolly wouldn't be able to manipulate their own damn zippers and we'd be cleaning up puddles and feces all day from everyone over 40.

[b0rsuk]

Actually, manipulation is not tied to EVERYTHING. For example, animal taming only uses Consciousness, Talking and skill. This means an old geezer can time animals just fine if he can move. Alas, many old people can't move.

[FMJ Penguin]

lolz true

God this game sure makes for some interesting conversations that's for sure. 

[RemingtonRyder]

I think the turrets need to be more of a tank role than damage. That is, they occupy the attention of raiders and do a minor bit of damage, and they don't go down straight away.

They should have less range, so that you need to use long-ranged weapons to take out raiders who have a ranged advantage on the turrets. Bear in mind that although vanilla turrets can attack targets at their max range, the accuracy is quite limited.

[b0rsuk]

Plasteel turrets already do that. Besides, do we really want AI so stupid that it attacks things posing only a minor threat, like in a MMO ?

Manhunter pack and plain raiders are already capable of attacking and destroying walls. I had wargs and boars attack and destroy my doors.

[pigman999999999]

how about you just DIE no tho just add MOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE NAKED PIERATES (Disclamer will not solve problem)

[Mihsan]

I think the turrets need to be more of a tank role than damage. That is, they occupy the attention of raiders and do a minor bit of damage, and they don't go down straight away.

They should have less range, so that you need to use long-ranged weapons to take out raiders who have a ranged advantage on the turrets. Bear in mind that although vanilla turrets can[/] attack targets at their max range, the accuracy is quite limited.

Short range is the reason for killbox tactic. Low damage is the reason for turret spam.

IMO there must be bariety of turrets:

One expensive with tank cannon, that will not be overshot by sniper rifle and had chance against centipede. To place in first line of defense outside of the wall.

Turret with MG/minigun to support first one. And to defend area behind the wall.

Close range turret (flamethrower?) vs animals and for interior backup protection.

[Menuhin]

I've said this before, but I have a problem with how helpless many colonists you get are. If turrets are removed, I will probably become quite ruthless in colonist selection. If you are over 60, sorry you can't pull your weight and I won't take you.

A colonist with bad back, frail and two cataracts (and people over 60, 70 tend to be all of the above) he can't help the colony even as a medic, cook or animal handler. Bad eyes and bad manipulation make for a bad medic. Bad movement speed make for a bad animal handler, especially tamer. Slow work speed make bad artists, crafters, constructors. I'd rather have a colonist who can only shoot but do it well. Or even a melee specialist with good skills.

here here....... it's the damn manipulation being tied to everything and hit too hard by everything or something....

I can easily agree with both of you on those sentiments, how "broken" everyone in rimworld seems to be is rather rediculous.  Not to say that I'm opposed to colonists having quirks, but then with how much a minor thing effects everything the colonist is able to do it becomes burdensome.  Though that is really a different discussion.

[JimmyAgnt007]

Im in the "keep the turrets" camp but also agree that they need to change.  This is my list of changes I would make.

Research them.
Make them manned.
Make them larger (4square)
Research upgrades to make them stronger, faster, tougher, longer (range).
More advanced means more power use.
Use ammo boxes that can be made like artillery shells.
Upgrade with an AI core for improved targeting. (Crappy autofire without a colonist manning it)

Also make them so they can be moved like other furniture.

So on one hand they become much more devastating weapons but much more resource intensive.  Still puts colonists at risk.  So we no longer have massive numbers of expendable turrets for killboxes.

[akiceabear]

Instead making them explode, which makes them into a landmine, make them drain X power off your network when they are destroyed -that should help balance against spamming them.