How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[Poochie]

I think a good work-around for doing more to have gameplay out in the open would be the ability to send your colonists off on raids or explorations of your own to find resources or go on hunting trips or whatever - you designate a few colonists as raiders or hunters, they disappear off map for a day or two, then you get to load into a new map with these colonists (probably best to make time pause on your home map during this time) and play out the hunt or the raid or whatever.

This would require an overhaul of the inventory system (maybe not for hunts - each colonist brings back a muffalo corpse) and the ability to generate new random maps with other factions on them which I imagine wouldn't be quick and easy but would encourage outdoorsy play on these away from home maps. Let people hunker down in their mountains if they wish, but if they don't want to risk a few colonists on a raid on a nearby pirate base to claim a few bionic limbs or an AI core or some Plasteel - that's on them.

[Ace_livion]

here are my thoughts of open bases.

Manhunterpacks Murder Open bases.
unless you make a killbox or something brilliant, they murder your base.
to many openings. no warning on the charge. my bases constantly fear manhunter packs.
there are no mercy when the boombalopes or wargens strike.  (and opening and closing your doors to pot shot at them feel cheesy)

Dry thunderstorm.
so open base.. in the open... lets hope that your colonists get their shit together and research stone cutting .. or else its gonna burn.
you can ask colonists to remove grass around your base when shit happen. but they have to work fast...
it all about defenses.

open colony, have.... more openings... need more turrets.. more turrets = more wealth (if I'm not mistaken) more wealth = more Raiders and bad stuff... its a endless circle of pain... so hard to replace the "wealth" efficient kill box... unless turrets don't make a base more desired to be raided?

but what are we aiming for here? to make open bases more desirable? or underground bases less?
if you aim for the later, things such as earthquakes that punishes underground players more might work.

but to have an "open base" more desired i like to see something like barbed wire? something that allow you to kinda direct the flow of the enemy yet not enclose your base. or give an advantage to the invaders.

have an "combat trained" skill for your tame animals to give them extra movement speed. since open bases without walls have more grass, that allows for animals as a better second hand defense.

practical items for the base like a chimney? gives warms + mood boost + light? sure it uses wood. but cannot be places under solid roof.
outdoor ? more dirt.  dirt = time cleaning and less mood.
so things can be uses to lower that loses will help.
drop the pool table... give me a pool. a nice open pool to hold a party at. that bring all those vault delvers out in the open

how about something like a sprinkler? indoor bases get their food form sunlamps + hydroponics basin. thins that cost a lot of power.
and cant handle rain. so a thing that cant be used underground but help open bases gain faster food for less power is something to desire.
(dammit I made a wall of text)

[SuperCaffeineDude]

In the ideal world or rather the un-ideal Rim-World I think mountain segregation could be solved using...

Water (+++plez+++)
Colonists and crops need water, water only located outside.
So in most conditions you set up a water butt (outside) as seen in Rust that collects during rain/snow
In a desert we could use high tech moisture farms (like star wars), that have to be exposed to outside conditions, with an area of exposure like a wind-turbine that effects it's gather rate.
Maybe also have Stagnant-Water available in lakes, that we can Distill using cooking apparatus.

Cave-ins
More struts/pillars are needed to stop caves from collapsing, maybe mining granite is safer than mining sandstone, though how that would be simulated sounds difficult to implement. Maybe tremors can cause rock to crash down

Harder Mining
Maybe mining a entire tile should take longer, or require expensive tools (that would be great but no doubt take a while to implement), the yields could be increased for balance.
Alternatively/Additionally, hauling could become a much bigger deal, with loose rock and stone chunks heavily impeding the process.

Metal
Currently metal largely needs to be gathered from the same level you reside in, creating caves that you might as well utilize, if steel was harvestable from underground (purely contextually/cosmetically) via some mine shaft node and/or using the scrap steel chunks accessible early game, a cavern free colony would be much more attainable.

Other
Towers: Being in the open means you can use towers
Turrets: Turrets could become hostile on certain events or when "hacked" by pirates/mechs. Turret recipes could also involve special ingredients, like -for instance- more bespoke Electronic-Components. They could also be made at differing qualities, like weapons, with poor craftsmanship yielding ineffective turrets.
Lobbing: Some weapons could fly over fortifications like arrows, grenades and launchers.
Traps: Simple traps have less chance to activate when humanoids cross them.

AI
AI Pathing: Stone Chunks are considered walls by enemy AI using ranged weapons, so their placement within kill boxes becomes impossible, tiles with a ceiling stone chunks could literally act as a wall.
AI Pathing 2: Each attacker death creates NoMansLand for enemy AI, when overlapped X times (i.e: 3 pawns die on one tile), the AI treats NoMansLand as a walled off area.
AI Targeting: AI simply would rather attack "outside" structures/targets, or rather facilities not capped by a mountain.
AI Sieges: Enemies prepare for the long hall, they build accommodation, have better relations with one another, and receive a mental boost based on expectation, perhaps they block communication as well. So sallying out becomes more important.

On the Bugs
I like them but they do feel a little too out of nowhere. The "get gd camp" might oppose toning them down, but personally a would much prefer more innately core reasons to not build in a mountain, i.e: LackOfX, the bugs spawning besides a nest in the middle of your base feels a bit too random, and happens a little too often. Maybe if it was a slower process with them constructing their nests it might feel more natural, just as is they feel a bit arbitrary.

...

Those are my thoughts, I'd particularity favor water becoming a driving something you get outside.

[b0rsuk]

I can't think of any positive incentives to build in the open. Maybe planting devilstrand. But that is only viable if you have a lenghty growing period and skilled crafters.

[SuperCaffeineDude]

Without adding something we need outside, oxygen/water/space/nutrition/light/awareness there's no way to provide incentive.

The only positive way I think it could be incentivised is if there way some way to mount walls, or mount stations where you can shoot over walls, then it might become more viable to have traditional defenses "outside".

There'd have to be some clever math relating to what line of sight would be, as hugging the wall from a distance should provide cover, whereas hugging a wall 1 tile from a tower should provide no cover.

Perhaps on that note a tower could ignore sandbag-like cover within a certain radius, as they would be shooting down onto more exposed units.

Those sorts of advantages might make it worth forgoing the intestine-corridors and kill-boxes, or maybe not idk.

[paja338]

I find that bases out in the open without outer wall don't live long, I just build a square shape outer wall around my buildings with many doors so that raiders split around and I can task all my colonists with melee to attack single targets at a time, a brief sallying out if you will. To make this work for sappers you have to use something like psychic shock lance on the grenadiers and after their demise the AI will turn into normal raid.

But really walls exist to give you time to prepare for bad things, can't blame people for using them and wanting embrasures.
Btw about 9 colonists with longswords are quite capable of taking down a centipede bashing on your doors quickly, without injuries.

I do like the idea of having mood boosting harvestable plants that grow only outdoors and the requirement for water and even the need to use the loo. I think you lot are on to something here. 

[Lakuna]

I, ever since my first game, have always made a mountain base, i check where the thin roof lines are and make sure not to expose my base under them in the event pods crash through.  I always make my hallways 5 tiles wide, and line them with metal walls.  Antimater reactors (i remove the build outdoors only restriction) I build at the back of my base, at the edge of the maps build-able area.  The entrance to my base is through two types of killboxes that can deal with most anything.  ship parts can be walled off and delt with.  mechanoid raids are the only real concern but no biggie.  food can be grown inside, trade post in the middle of my killbox saves space and give my people reason to go outside to avoid cabin fever.  plus im always recovering crap and mining outside my base so its not much of an issue.  I have no reason to do anything different.

That being said, a Horta would be an awesome idea, I loved that episode! 

To get people out of the mountain, making mining more difficult would just slow down resource extraction way too much.  I did suggest armoured roofing for buildings a while back but Tynan said it would unbalance the game.  Not sure I agree if you make it costly but i get where he is coming from.  Maybe a point defence laser array that shoots down hostile drop pods?  or just shield domes?  Id love to have an outside complex, but it is just far too exposed.

What do you mean by pods crashing through? I've always built mountain bases, I didn't know there was any other way to build a base. That's why I never choose a spot on the world map without Mountains.

[Kegereneku]

I rarely place my colony inside mountain myself. And my biggest bother is that FALLOUT events ask for a fully roofed everything, while MANHUNTER PACK require a wall perimeter.

Hard to bring people out when 2 important event force you in.

[JimmyAgnt007]

What do you mean by pods crashing through? I've always built mountain bases, I didn't know there was any other way to build a base. That's why I never choose a spot on the world map without Mountains.

Raiding drop pods can punch through thin roofs, so unless you have a thick mountain roof over your head they can come down in the middle of your base. 

[Lakuna]

What do you mean by pods crashing through? I've always built mountain bases, I didn't know there was any other way to build a base. That's why I never choose a spot on the world map without Mountains.

Raiding drop pods can punch through thin roofs, so unless you have a thick mountain roof over your head they can come down in the middle of your base.

I just used developmental mode to build a non-mountain base, and raiders went right through the ceiling in drop pods.

[Vaporisor]

I think that farms are one of the best encouragements to be outside.  They have so many advantages.  The other is security.  I can secure my power sources much better.

AI is the biggest advantage to indoors.  If AI accounted for threat, they would prioritize punching down walls or taking out power first.  It wouldnt help the one way in out issues, but it would encourage more player and pawn activity, less auto killbox.

Cave ins of some sort would be the biggest.  Lose some power cable, crush that bench.  Not major, just an occasional rubble fall or mortars causing on mountain strike?

The concept of needing more external resources.  Wells and such is nice.  I do find bugs to be quite the enjoyable challenge.  Though the notification system potentially tweaked.

What. About cabin fever more?  Have it need to wear down by activity the same as heatstroke and frostbite?

Windowed wall potentially to remedy that with outdoors.  Lets light in, so free no darkness.  Also reduces cabin fever potential.  Big help in extreme biomes.  Tradeoff is they are a wall weakpoint.  Ideal mechanic is one hit busting and act as sandbag til repaired similar to a breakdown.

I think windows is the best start.  Simple structure, sandstone window etc that has many outdoor boons without complex code.

[Lakuna]

Maybe the colonists get a bad thought for living in a mountain, like "I'm underground -30" or "Claustrophobic -20"

Maybe claustrophobic could be a trait too, so certain colonists that are claustrophobic get a HUGE bad thought for living in a mountain.

[Vaporisor]

That sort of forced play usually isn't too well received.  It is kind of a block.  Claustrophobic isn't a bad idea, but it would have to be separate from the mountain.  Just negative mood more from small spaces.  That is why it should be something in mechanics that makes it harder to take advantage of being underground.  So natural lighting, growing zones, and wind/solar power generators are the big ones.  If the AI went after those opposed to going through auto killboxes, then it means that a player will at least in part need to still build above ground.

The disadvantage stuff should feel natural.  Bugs were a good one.  But if there were the cave in potential, that would make it interesting.  Claustrophobic with small roofed areas in general would be profound as well.  Psychological sicknesses.  Phobias acting just like frostbite or physical ailments.  Over time it just increases.  So if outside buildings, then your character is always getting a bit of sun, keeps that ailment from ever manifesting. 

To keep it and cabin fever down in a mountain base, it would have to be massively sprawling.  Large rooms and hallways.  That then means more investment in the power systems and less efficient work due to larger areas to traverse.  An indirect penalty instead of a direct one.  It also is one that can still be countered if a person just likes the in mountain playstyle.

[Poochie]

That sort of forced play usually isn't too well received.  It is kind of a block.  Claustrophobic isn't a bad idea, but it would have to be separate from the mountain.  Just negative mood more from small spaces.  That is why it should be something in mechanics that makes it harder to take advantage of being underground.  So natural lighting, growing zones, and wind/solar power generators are the big ones.  If the AI went after those opposed to going through auto killboxes, then it means that a player will at least in part need to still build above ground.

The disadvantage stuff should feel natural.  Bugs were a good one.  But if there were the cave in potential, that would make it interesting.  Claustrophobic with small roofed areas in general would be profound as well.  Psychological sicknesses.  Phobias acting just like frostbite or physical ailments.  Over time it just increases.  So if outside buildings, then your character is always getting a bit of sun, keeps that ailment from ever manifesting. 

To keep it and cabin fever down in a mountain base, it would have to be massively sprawling.  Large rooms and hallways.  That then means more investment in the power systems and less efficient work due to larger areas to traverse.  An indirect penalty instead of a direct one.  It also is one that can still be countered if a person just likes the in mountain playstyle.

Cave in's - oh man, I can already imagine it now. A colonist gets trapped behind a cave in and you've got to dig them out before they starve. Would lead to some pretty cool stories!

[Spectreofoz]

Farming and power production has always had me build my colony half in half out.
too many things can punching thought the roof that can total your base not to have atleast some part of base under a rock roof

use of water and water bodies could help
Fishing and fish farming could help
Fences and low rock walls would help expand out
Pawns on Patrol - Pawns range from a base set distances - job - pest/wildlife control , farm animals protect, come to aid of other pawns being attacked , break up fights 

Rework mining and how its done - Low lvl miners only able to mine x distances from outside area
                                                - Low lvl miners only able to mine smaller rooms
                                                - Low lvl mined areas that do exceed the above are classed a very unstable
                                                - Load bearing walls and pillers under a mountain must be build by high lvl miner-builder (pawn skilled in both)
                                                - Research skill - for reworking low lvl mined areas and to make larger rooms
                                                - support beams (bit like door frames) for long tunnels also able destroy to cause collapes or area to be unstable

all will increase the inherent danger of mining and increase time,resources and skills needed to build a "Safer" base under the mountain