Ludeon's stance on absorbing mods?

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I was updating some other people's mods today when I noticed that some of the new code in B18 look eerily similar to the code in one of the mods I was working with. The mod in question was listed as having the creative commons license, meaning that it could be copied and adapted, but not for commercial use.

I don't have all the facts, I'm not accusing Ludeon Studios of anything (I am giving the benefit of the doubt and believe that they asked permission first). However, I don't see any credit given either.

Can/will Ludeon Studios just take mods and "absorb" them? What about copying the code from mods?

[Sniper Pilot]

Without Ludeon, there would be no Rimworld- Without Rimworld there would be no mods for Rimworld. How many different ways can you code to get the same result? Isnt it Rimworld's code in the first place? No one has licensed Unity separately for Rimworld.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

"Without {Ford}, there would be no {Falcon}- Without {The Falcon} there would be no {intermittent windshield wiper system} for {The Falcon}. How many different ways can you {Manufacture} to get the same result? Isnt it {The Falcon's} {Manufacturing process} in the first place?"

If you don't know the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

"No one has licensed Unity separately for Rimworld." --Most certainly they have: Ludeon studios has to pay the creators of Unity for commercially using their software.

Did Ludeon copy the code? It looks very, very, very, very close to it. How many ways could the same problem be solved? A few. But using nearly identical variable names?

What if the modder had a patreon to fund his development?

[sadpickle]

Very, very, very, very close is not identical.

I can't speak for anyone but I would imagine Ludeon Studios would ask before incorporating mod content. Much volunteered mod content HAS been integrated into vanilla over the alphas.

[Canute]

FrodoOf9Fingers,
did you saw these topic ?
Want to see YOUR mod in RimWorld?
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29505.0

Do you know, that the modder didn't take part of that program.
From my point, it is a great honor for the modder that his mod/idea made it into the core game, ofcouse with the agreement of the modder.

[SpaceDorf]

Over the years I am following Rimworld now, multiple Suggestions and Mods have been included into Vanilla Rimworld, so your founding is not so suprising to me.

And in my personal oppinion including a Mod into the Vanilla game is the greatest acknowledgement a Modder can achieve. The Mod fits the Vision of the games Creator.

===== EDIT =====
Well lets see whats really new.

Rough features list:

Meteorite impact. A meteorite impacts, leaving a lump of mineable ore. <- Mod, A15, Skullywag
       
Aurora. A beautiful aurora lights up the night sky, improving mood. <- Mod, More Incidents, don't know creator

Peace talks quest <- Reacon and Discovery Mod

Storyful combat: A major rework of melee combat, and a new way to report all combat interactions.  <- DF

Gun research is now broken into several stages, so making advanced guns like assault rifles takes more research than making simple revolvers <- Often Suggested, once by me 
   
Bedroll: Portable bed <- Mod, camping stuff and tribal add ons

Dresser: Passively improves room <- Mod, more furniture
Endtable: Passive improves room  <- as above

Various new table sizes <- modded multiple times

New quest reward special items: <- similiar to some modded items, Reacon and Discovery Mod; Misc Incidents Mod

Tribal content upgrade: <- similar to tribal stuff mod

New world site components (used in various situations): <- new, misc incidents mod

New mental breaks: <- mod more mental breaks

Caves now form sometimes in mountainous maps.
Inside there are special cave plants.  <- mod, caveworld fauna, caveworld biome

Crop blights now appear and spread over time instead of instantly destroying crops
<- proof of concept mod

Space ship construction now requires advanced components, which have their own tech tree and production method <- often suggested, modded in different ways

Split pistol into revolver and autopistol  <- several mods
Boomalopes can be milked for chemfuel <- several mods
Added chemfuel generator, which generates electricity from chemfuel <- several mods

Artillery works differently now.  <- long standing concept discussion

Redesigned alert letter types and sounds to be more specific. <- there was a mod for that

Pawns can now be banished. This is analogous to abandoning pawns in caravans. <- wishlist and mods

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

@Sadpickle
Very, very, very, very close is close enough (I program for a living too).

Plagiarism does not have to be identical, just within reason. In my earnest opinion, it looks like the code was copied over, and then more code was added to handle a different feature later on (which is still not allowed by the Creative Commons License found under the specified mod).

I certainly do think that Ludeon would ask permission, but if they went through that much trouble they would have done more to change the code AND they would still have to list the original authors as per the creative commons license (although that's my layman's understanding).

Looking on the internet for help with code is common. However, once an example is found, you don't copy the code. You understand the code, and then reimplement it without looking at it. This doesn't look like what happened.

However, I'm more interested in whether or not my own mod will be absorbed. If I spend time working with their code base, creating something that adds value to the game, would I get any credit if they put the functionality into vanilla?

@Canute/Spacedorf
I've seen that topic, the mod in question is not there. It's not really a "great honor" to have a mod in the game TBH. In fact, the opposite happens: your mod is added, and then nobody gives you recognition for your hard work anymore. The game becomes more popular, making the company more money, not you, and in fact you lose any money you may have been making via donations. *shrug*, to each their own I guess.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

@Spacedorf
You edited while I was posting

The code in question is not a "what", it's a "how". It's not a new feature, it's how a new feature was accomplished. I'm pretty sure the idea for the mod has been around for awhile. But taking the -implementation- of the idea (or part thereof) should be frowned upon. Anyone can come up with ideas of what's cool, but developers get paid 60-150k yearly because implementing them is -hard- and they are the only ones who can do it.

[SpaceDorf]

@FrodoOf9Fingers.

I get your point.
And I am not defending or supporting copy and paste mentality. I am not deep enough in the code myself to verify, but with the knowledge of your other projects I certainly believe you. And Acknowledgement should be given. This said we should watch the complete games credits to be sure 


The question remains of what the code does.
If it's performance enhancement the implementation is important.
If it's something else, it still could be parallel evolution.

[Sniper Pilot]

"...
"No one has licensed Unity separately for Rimworld." --Most certainly they have: Ludeon studios has to pay the creators of Unity for commercially using their software.
...

But is Ledeon a mod maker? no...

[Bozobub]

This has come up before, and the laissez-faire attitude many people have about the problem pisses me right off.  What a great way to ensure many mod writers stay away!

Unique code is protected by copyright, at least when properly asserted (such as a GNU General License).  Are simple changes to a game's XML/variables "unique code"?  No.  Entirely new routines?  Yes.  It really IS that simple.

Just because that code interacts with another product to work, doesn't mean a damn thing.  Think otherwise?  Fine; explain the commercial sale of AutoCAD, Photoshop, Lightwave Studio, and other programs that have extremely extensive commercial "mod" ecosystems ("plugin" = "mod"), and how their code is automatically "owned" by the devs of the main program involved.  You're gonna fail, however, I warn you ^^'.

Leaving the subject of legality aside, asserting ownership of mods by Ludeon not only won't work, it's going to limit the mod ecosystem.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I had a brillant idea: I looked at the EULA. In it:

"You own content you create. However, by creating any Mod or derivative work from RimWorld or making any content available on or through the Software, you agree to give Ludeon permission to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display that content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission is irrevocable and lasts forever. You also agree to let Ludeon permit other people to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display your content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission can be sold or licensed to anyone. Though we generally like to credit everyone for their work, we're not required to credit or acknowledge you if we use anything you created, or if we allow another to do so. If you don't want to give us these permissions, do not make content available on or through the Software. Please think carefully before you make any content available, because it may be made public and might even be used by other people in a way you don't like."

In other words, screw modder's rights. This is downright theft, and I will discontinue making mods publicly for Rimworld, and will encourage others to do the same. I bet a large part of Rimworld's success has been because of modders (How many of you play the game unmodded)? We like the experience modded, we encourage others to buy it because we know it has a lot of mods. So the game makes more money. But the modders don't have to be compensated in -any- way for it, let alone acknowledged, even if their code was copy-pasted directly into the game. Licensing be damned.

[RemingtonRyder]

When you make mods for a game that is still in development, you are well aware that your mod could later become obsolete or not work or need substantial rework to continue to work. And yes, your mod may be incorporated into the game.

Here's the thing. As modders, we put a lot of content out there. So it is inevitable that a mod matches up with something on the to-do list for the game. Just like it's inevitable that another modder looks at your code and figures out how to do something similar.

If you feel like your content has been copied and passed off as something new, I can understand the frustration in that. And maybe there's a complaint to be made, I don't know.

If the conditions for making mods no longer suit you, or you get bored of making a particular mod, or indeed if you can't really continue your mod as it is because it's now in the game, there's always the option to move on and do something else.

And as for the EULA itself, frankly I find it indecipherable and frustrating to read, like so many others that have come before it. Without the right context and history, you can read the words, but you have no idea what it means.

[OFWG]

I will discontinue making mods publicly for Rimworld

Door's that way ==>

Licensing be damned.

Yeah actually, you were quoting from the licensing agreement. If you don't like it, see above.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

When you make mods for a game that is still in development, you are well aware that your mod could later become obsolete or not work or need substantial rework to continue to work. And yes, your mod may be incorporated into the game.

Here's the thing. As modders, we put a lot of content out there. So it is inevitable that a mod matches up with something on the to-do list for the game. Just like it's inevitable that another modder looks at your code and figures out how to do something similar.

If you feel like your content has been copied and passed off as something new, I can understand the frustration in that. And maybe there's a complaint to be made, I don't know.

If the conditions for making mods no longer suit you, or you get bored of making a particular mod, or indeed if you can't really continue your mod as it is because it's now in the game, there's always the option to move on and do something else.

And as for the EULA itself, frankly I find it indecipherable and frustrating to read, like so many others that have come before it. Without the right context and history, you can read the words, but you have no idea what it means.

As stated before, ideas are cheap. BUT TAKING CODE IS INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT. Sure, Ludeon may had the idea before you did, they can develop that with thier own time and resources. But just willy nilly going into your mod and take the CODE that you developed, and copy paste that, that's morally wrong.