[1.0] RedistHeat (Oct 29, v50) Ported to 1.0

Started by Morgloz, July 19, 2016, 02:19:23 PM

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Takel

Really not having any success with using the new duct network.

First off the situation:
The map is a rather cold map, hence heating is a pretty big priority. Ambient biome temperatures are around -18C during my testing session. Ambient internal temperatures are around -6C thanks to insulation.

The HVAC lab room is a 13x9 with 8 Industrial heaters in it, all set to target 50C. The room has a single Intake, which is the only intake in the entire network. This singular intake is capable of keeping the temperature of the lab room to around 26C despite having 4000Wh of heaters in the room. Despite that much power in heating, the network is incapable of bringing two fairly large rooms of around 11x19 and an 18x18 sleeping quarter which is double-double insulated. Not only is that sleeping quarter already behind a double walled insulation of the main base with an air-gap in between the double walls, the sleeping quarters has its own double walled with air-gap isolation.

I would have far better success keeping both those rooms heated at my target temperature of 18C if I were to use 2 maybe 3 medium heaters each, or around 1200Wh of heating maximum and more like a maintenance bill of ~500Wh vs a 4000Wh industrial heater setup + 110Wh of intakes/outputs plus the significant difference in steel + component costs. I could possibly tweak the HVAC room to be fully isolated with additional heaters padding the immediate surrounding temperatures but that's just far too much effort and cost for something that can be handled cheaper and more easily with standard non-centralised methods.

As an experiment, I could bring the lab room to ~90C with the intake disabled, then once I enable the intake the temperature in the room will drop to ~26C within about a minute. If I need to cool down a hot room, I'd just use a single duct intake and it'll bring the room's temperature down to ambient for 20Wh.


Personally, I feel that attempting to retain the ability to use a cold/hot room as a source for a duct network is going to hamper attempts to make it actually usable.

PotatoeTater

You have to use multiple intakes, if you read the patch notes they generate flow mainly so the network can keep pumping. Think of it as an air return vent in your house.
Life is Strange

Takel

#227
I know how to setup intakes thank you very much. The problem is that the intake temperature completely dominates the network temperature. You very much need a hot/cold room and totally ignore attempting to influence the network temperature by directly connecting the heater/coolers to the network.

Did a few more tests and I've completely broken the heating system.

Experimental setup: 4x4 room with a single industrial heater in it, plus 2 intake ducts
Industrial heater is set with a target temperature of 91C (higher the better). Since this is a very small room, this is no problem regardless of insulation and external temperatures
I'm able to heat a base of around 2100 tiles in area against a biome ambient temperature of -31C to an internal temperature of 21-25C using approximately 150Wh in heating. The intake temperature completely dominates the network temperature.

Additional test: I stuck on another 7 industrial heaters onto the same duct network, setting those additional industrial heaters to output to the network. Target temperatures: 101C. I reset the intake room's target to 50C. End result: Network temperature is struggling to hit 80C.

My take on the duct network as it stands: If you are looking for heating, you can break it completely by using a minimal sized room, oversizing the heating within the room and then output near unlimited heat so long as you size the intake ducts to the output ducts appropriately.

The only problem is that any pawn that wanders into that room is going to suffer an instant heat stroke.


Final experiment. This entire base complex
is being heated from -23C to 19C using a single output duct from a 4x4 room with one industrial heater and a single intake duct with a target temperature of 110C. The 4x4 room is a completely stand alone structure with a constructed roof and single wall against the ambient -23C temperatures
The industrial heater I estimate has a duty cycle of about 70% so the total energy consumption for the heater will be approximately 365Wh and the ducts themselves will take negligible amounts of power.

The only concession I made is that there is an airlock to the base and it has a double wall with air gap construction. Before running the test, I flushed out the internal temperatures by punching a hole through all the walls to expose every room to the Outdoor.

Seeker89

There is something messed up with it. I set up a room, cooking it at 100c with an intake. That heated my whole base nicely. When I decided to put another heater room on the other side of my base, I'm now having problems keeping the pipes at 100c.

joaonunes

#229
Quote from: faltonico on February 11, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
Thanks a lot!
Trying it now.

EDIT: It worked like a charm, thanks!

Glad I could help :D
I've asked for Morgloz to put this "fix" in the main post for those who wanted to install the mod in an existing save but I don't think he wants to do it :P
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Takel

#230
Did some additional testing. It appears that when I build a hot room/intake under a mountain ceiling, I'll have the unstable network temperatures. Under a constructed ceiling on the other hand, I'll be able to cheese a full base heating with just a single heater.

Going to do additional testing

Edit:
Nope. It's not the overhead mountain. Something is causing hot rooms inside my base area to have really unstable network temperatures whereas if I were to build it way out in the open then pull a huge long pipe back in, it's perfectly fine.

crusader2010

#231
Hi. Sorry to be a bit offtopic but i'm really curious about this insulation system. Does it matter how many walls we put between interior and exterior? By how much with each layer? Does the material from which the wall is made matter? Is the air gap working? By what difference compared to an additional wall layer?

Also,is there any difference between a constructed wall and a mountain wall? Do doors behave the same way as walls?

Thanks and sorry for alll the questions :) i'm really curious about this hidden stat.
My mod pack: {A13} Mod Mega Pack

Takel

I wouldn't call it a hidden stat but it's a behaviour I've experienced enough times to incorporate it as a standard practise for when I build out my bases regardless of the biome because heating/cooling is always an issue.

I've noted at the very least it'll make a few degrees difference when you're looking at -15C external temperatures to 17C internal plus a rather big decrease in energy requirements for heating/cooling. When making a greenhouse for a borean forest map, a single wall made it extremely difficult to keep above 12C with 2 small heaters, but simply double-thick walling it made it possible to keep warm with a single small heater.

An air gap between the two walls appears to make an even greater difference to the point where I can keep a fairly large area warm using a 2 small heaters. I don't have definitive experimental results nor do I have models simulating the differences. Just a fair amount of playtime exhibiting the behaviour. Material type doesn't seem to make a difference, just layered walls. An air gap appears to work a lot better than just thicker walls. In a mountain base, if I keep the sleeping rooms disconnected from the main walls I can allow them to stay warm passively with no vents so long as I heat the larger chamber in which those rooms are located. If I have rooms touching the wall that constitutes the rest of the mountain however, they have much lower temperatures.

Open doors allow for some heat transference, but at a much slower rate. I've had a main chamber which was 6C with an open door into a corridor of -1C and those temperatures stay stable.

Morgloz

I've updated the mod, now it has a flow tooltip and the intakes/outlets have been nerfed, now they should work better.
My mods:
RedistHeat

CathDubh

Getting "NaNC" temperature reading in all rooms in my save when I start it. Paused the temperatures all read perfectly as I left them when originally saved. A second after unpausing all the rooms cascade into having "NaNC" temperature and any indoor pawn is extremely uncomfortable.

When I click on the massive heater i get a red error message which says that "the redistheater has a six line string and some may be blank etc"

Everything was working well prior to initial save and exit including both hot and cold rooms and their corresponding networks.

Tried deleting roof over the building which normalised with outdoors, but it returns to NaNc temperature when new roof is built even when both networks remain powered down.

Is there something I can do to debug or sort it out?

Sirsim

Quote from: CathDubh on February 22, 2017, 05:25:50 PM
Getting "NaNC" temperature reading in all rooms in my save when I start it. Paused the temperatures all read perfectly as I left them when originally saved. A second after unpausing all the rooms cascade into having "NaNC" temperature and any indoor pawn is extremely uncomfortable.

When I click on the massive heater i get a red error message which says that "the redistheater has a six line string and some may be blank etc"

Everything was working well prior to initial save and exit including both hot and cold rooms and their corresponding networks.

Tried deleting roof over the building which normalised with outdoors, but it returns to NaNc temperature when new roof is built even when both networks remain powered down.

Is there something I can do to debug or sort it out?

Happened to me and only thing worked was loading a previous save (not the last one).
True self and happiness lies in the space between two thoughts.

ChairmanPoo

I've found that it's somehow related to the "temperature" in the ducts. Turning intakes and outtakes off sometimes fixes it.

(I agree, it's very annoying, particularily in the middle of volcanic winter)

CathDubh


Nanao-kun

The NaNC temperature also instantly dessicated my food stores, so yeah. Hope to see this fixed soon.

Sirsim

Tried to load a game today after last night, got the error again and unfortunately i had to go back to a save before installing the industrial coolers to avoid it. So no load with the current duct system will work.. 
True self and happiness lies in the space between two thoughts.