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Author Topic: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework  (Read 5167 times)

Morrneyo

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Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« on: January 08, 2018, 07:36:56 PM »

Nutrient Paste Dispenser (NPD) has a problem right now.

It needs damn hopper. The problem can be explained in two broad ways.

1. hopper works as independent stockpile zone, so colonists continuously try to fill it every moments when someone eat it with NPD. Colonists waste their energy and time just fill a fistful of rice.

2. Most of the raw food need to be frozen but hopper is usually exposed. It's waste of cooler to freeze the hopper. NPD need much more electricity then it looks.

Solution : NPD needs a new mechanism such as 'charge system', like chem-fueled generator or fueling workbenches. Charge them with raw food source and it doesn't need to be attached with hopper anymore. If the NPD run out of food source, let colonists fill it in at that moments. No more waste of cooler and electricity power.
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tmo97

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 06:06:21 PM »

Agreed. I never use these things. They waste time, they take resources, they need power, the food's bad, they create even more meaningless back and forth for my pawns. Never ever do I use them. Unless they get some serious upside that makes them worth it, I'm not using them. I never even see the need to use one, and it feels so out of place. It makes me think Tynan made this to fit with his undeveloped space idea of RimWorld and then later it got smeared across ideas. It's stupid.  :P
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Harry_Dicks

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 06:13:34 PM »

The mod RimWorld Search Agency comes with a submod called which used to be called Hauling Hysterics. On every stockpile zone you get a search window, and also at the bottom you have a "Don't refill until below X%" slider. So you could make it so the hoppers only refill when they are at 0%, and just put a fridge from RimFridge right next to it, so the food never, ever spoils before going in the hopper, and raw veggies probably won't if you have it set to never refill until at 0%! ;)
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tmo97

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 06:48:54 PM »

What about this.

Remove the hoppers, or increase what they can carry, otherwise they're oxymoronic because they make the pawns move around anyway.

Instead of hoppers, have it instantly consume whatever food your pawns bring to it, and have it fill up an internal variable that's equivalent to nutrients, for example 10.
Like this.
You bring 20x some food of a nutrient value of 0.05, and your NPD will have 1 nutrient in it. You can't get this nutrient out of it. It produces nutrient paste meals on the spot when used and takes the corresponding amount of nutrient from the NPD. You could have research that gives you different kinds of paste, so that the entire thing would be more relevant than it is right now. I don't use it /at all/. Never. Every time I build it, I immediately regret it.

It only takes power when you want to produce a nutrient paste.
How about it?
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Harry_Dicks

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 07:09:19 PM »

What about this.

Remove the hoppers, or increase what they can carry, otherwise they're oxymoronic because they make the pawns move around anyway.

Instead of hoppers, have it instantly consume whatever food your pawns bring to it, and have it fill up an internal variable that's equivalent to nutrients, for example 10.
Like this.
You bring 20x some food of a nutrient value of 0.05, and your NPD will have 1 nutrient in it. You can't get this nutrient out of it. It produces nutrient paste meals on the spot when used and takes the corresponding amount of nutrient from the NPD. You could have research that gives you different kinds of paste, so that the entire thing would be more relevant than it is right now. I don't use it /at all/. Never. Every time I build it, I immediately regret it.

It only takes power when you want to produce a nutrient paste.
How about it?

How about checking out the REPLIMAT System! https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=35146.0
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AileTheAlien

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 11:05:15 PM »

I agree with NPDs just having a percentage bar, just like chemfuel/wood generators, and the behaviour which would make pawns not constantly refill them. If there's concern about balance, since all material would fill the same guage, I propose different dispencers. Maybe one that can handle vegetables and regular meat (cheapest, earliest), one that can handle insects (research?), and one that can handle human meat. They all produce different meals, with the appropriate food debuffs.

I'm for improvements to the NPD, not because I think they're useless, but because they're actually quite useful, but filled with annoyances. Pros: fast prep time per food unit, no skill requirements, no food poisoning, huge boost to total nutrients (60% I believe). Cons: constant refilling behaviour negates the fast prep time and looks ridiculous, fiddly to set up cannibal vs normal restrictions (need zones, multiple NPDs, plus individual hopper settings).
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Granitecosmos

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 06:54:44 AM »

1. hopper works as independent stockpile zone, so colonists continuously try to fill it every moments when someone eat it with NPD. Colonists waste their energy and time just fill a fistful of rice.

This is a legit problem. Should be fixable if devs extend the storage area options and give us options to fill tiles only if the maximum stackable amount decreases under a certain percentage (or flat number).

2. Most of the raw food need to be frozen but hopper is usually exposed. It's waste of cooler to freeze the hopper. NPD need much more electricity then it looks.

This is not true. Vegetables last for a very long time. Potato lasts for 2 seasons, rice for 3 seasons and corn for a whole year without any cooling whatsoever. NPD acts as a wall so it's not hard at all to make 3 rooms for it. One is the dining room, one is an actual freezer with 3/4 hoppers while the last one is a storage room for vegetables without cooling and another 3-4 hoppers. The problem you describe originates from a lack of experience of using a NPD. Meat has to be freezed anyway so it's not like you won't make a freezer in the first place.

It would be nice if the hopper had an option to request the food stack that'd spoil first. A small QoL change for people like me who don't freeze their vegetables.

Solution : NPD needs a new mechanism such as 'charge system', like chem-fueled generator or fueling workbenches. Charge them with raw food source and it doesn't need to be attached with hopper anymore. If the NPD run out of food source, let colonists fill it in at that moments. No more waste of cooler and electricity power.

This could work if the NPD was changed a bit. Cooling technology would be a new prerequisite for it and increase its power consumption by 100 to simulate stored food being cooled. The new storage capacity would have to reach at least 20 nutrients to somewhat match 6 hoppers' capacity. However the cost of hoppers should also be included so NPD must cost 90 more steel. Alternatively set capacity to 10 nutrition and increase cost by 45 steel instead.

People severely underestimate the NPD. Paste meals cost 40% less food which means 40% less growing/harvesting/food hauling jobs. One cook would have to work 24/7 for ~10 people to feed them all the time. Building a NPD means one more colonist to do something else. Sure, it does generate hauling jobs but a lot less "wasted" work time than a cook would. And a -4 mood is negligible when you have access to a +10 mood from joy for essentially free or have a nice dining room that cancels out the debuff.

The NPD isn't in a desperate need for a rework. It's fine as is, if you know how to set it up properly. What it does need is a way to manually pull meals from it for emergencies. A solar flare makes it useless for half a day. This can be solved by keeping 2-3 stacks of emergency pemmican somewhere but it would be a lot better if we had an option to be able to pull paste meals until storage has X meals or something. Essentially add a bill to it. It would also be a nice way to feed animals (since animals literally ignore kibble if they can path to any other food, making kibble worthless if you want to keep animals for food hauling or generally allow them into areas with food). People can already force-pull meals from the NPD by drafting-undrafting a hungry colonist and forbidding dropped paste meals. Why not make it a legit option?
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Mehni

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 07:40:05 AM »

1. hopper works as independent stockpile zone, so colonists continuously try to fill it every moments when someone eat it with NPD. Colonists waste their energy and time just fill a fistful of rice.

This is a legit problem. Should be fixable if devs extend the storage area options and give us options to fill tiles only if the maximum stackable amount decreases under a certain percentage (or flat number).

That already exists, and the number is 25. They won't refill a hopper unless there's space for 25 ingredients.

I agree with the general idea that the NPD is getting a little bit long in the tooth - it's been largely unchanged for ~13 alphas and it shows. It's a very practical building, but it has some downsides it shouldn't have. The solar flare is one thing, a chunk blocking its interaction spot is another. Refrigerated hoppers and meal-prep on demand would be nice too.

AileTheAlien

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 01:17:19 PM »

NPD acts as a wall [...] The problem [is] a lack of experience of using a NPD.
The real problem is this undocumented behavior that NPDs have. They, along with smelters and trading comms I believe, all count as walls, but none of them tell the player this in the UI.
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Harry_Dicks

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 01:54:44 PM »

One cook would have to work 24/7 for ~10 people to feed them all the time.

Are you sure about that? I think my line cook, who all they do is drop meals on the floor, don't even stop to pick up ingredients, can cook for more people than that. I honestly haven't done any calculations, but 1 cook 24/7 per 10 people just seems off to me.
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Crow_T

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 05:14:16 PM »

I've played a bit and haven't used NPDs at all because if I capture a prisoner it's to either practice meds and release for goodwill (rare) or recruit (usually), so giving them lousy food from a special unit isn't worth it. Unless you are doing a slaver base I see no reason to keep prisoners around for a long time. I like the idea of it but just haven't had the need to use one yet.
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BasileusMaximos

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 07:15:44 PM »

I only try to use nutrient paste dispensers in prisons but even then colonist keep bringing them food so it never really gets used.

It is useful when I use my prison as a fallout shelter though.

What we need is a refrigerated hopper so you can just leave food ready to be juiced and forget about it. 
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oldman543

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 11:59:57 AM »

YES!!!!!  this frustrated me sooooooooooooo much when i started the game on the tutorial/ newbie mode. 
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lancar

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 04:24:14 AM »

Agreed.

Having the NPD be charged with food as "fuel" just like a pod launcher would make it much more practical. And while having its refill thresholds  be customizable would be nice, honestly it could just be set to hold like 100 units and only request a pawn to recharge it when at 50% and call it a day. It's not quite a full stack, but significally better than the constant mini-hauls hoppers get now and a lot of pawns have disabilities preventing them from carrying the full 75-unit amount anyway.
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Bolgfred

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Re: Nutrient Paste Dispenser needs rework
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2018, 06:09:50 AM »

I actually ask myself what do I need the NPD for anyway? I'd describe the strength and weakness of the NPD as followed:

-Good nutrient conversion
-Low/No work
-mood debuff
-Permanent energy consumption
-No cooking experience
-No transportation

conclusion
nutrient and work are a good reason to use it early game when there's no better source available. The mood debuff increases the pressure on using it only in emergencies. The energy cost instead is a reason not to use it in the beginning as electricity is something you don't have early game, so making simple meals is usually much better as it need no, or fewer energy than the NPD. Especially as the NPD need 24/7 energy, which is something that isn't always realistic in early.
=> I cannot imagine a single situation where I would need a NPD

Ideas
I think the big strength of a NPD is the nutrient effiency and preservation of food.
Both things I combine with caravaning as they need to spare space and long term food.
If now the NPD could be used to produce non-perishable food with low weight but high energy cost and research, it would turn from a useless early game device to a endgame alternative to pemmican(which is early/tribal game) and MRE(which I consider mid-game).
To spice it up, the mood debuff could stack higher or giving a hediff like "undernourishment" to punish longlong-usages.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:12:57 AM by Bolgfred »
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