Mods/Steam Workshop/Auto update: problem for savegames?

Started by Tortuosit, July 23, 2016, 02:11:16 AM

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Tortuosit

Hi guys, especially those deeply into Rimworld, I am not... While I like the Steam workshop integration, I'd like to know if the auto updating of mods is a problem for savegames. Never? Sometimes? Often? Always?

I have only deep knowledge about modding in the ArmA world, and there it is necessary to rather choose a semi automatic update way. I.e., has to be reviewed by me. There I will never choose workshop for mods, savegames are in danger.

TIA

1000101

You're late to the party.  We had this discussion weeks ago.
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Tortuosit


kaptain_kavern


RawCode

don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.

1000101

While what RawCode says about "update without warning" is a bit naive (with Workshop you have no choice), the best solution is just to void Workshop altogether.
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skullywag

Quote from: RawCode on July 24, 2016, 04:11:41 AM
don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.

How would this work then? if I need to update my mod its gonna go to steam workshop, doesnt matter if i prewarn people, as autoupdate (the subject of this post) will just update it whether you like it or not, so yeah as 1000101 states, only option is disable updates in some way, which is pretty much impossible except for simply not using steam.
Skullywag modded to death.
I'd never met an iterator I liked....until Zhentar saved me.
Why Unity5, WHY do you forsake me?

RemingtonRyder

For those who don't want a latest update or would prefer to update manually, I have provided a link back to the forum post which has the version history with links to the previous version.

Obviously it would be nice to provide some warning, but Workshop is kind of lacking there unless people have subscribed to the mod's comments page and can see you frantically jumping up and down saying 'GUYS I HAEV UPDATE READY 2 GO!!!!1!' ;)

Also, for very minor changes (which usually don't bork saved games) I wouldn't be too concerned about warning everyone. Just edit the change note, assuming that people read those.

1000101

(2*b)||!(2*b) - That is the question.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world - those that understand binary and those that don't.

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RawCode

Quote from: skullywag on July 24, 2016, 05:06:04 AM
Quote from: RawCode on July 24, 2016, 04:11:41 AM
don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.

How would this work then? if I need to update my mod its gonna go to steam workshop, doesnt matter if i prewarn people, as autoupdate (the subject of this post) will just update it whether you like it or not, so yeah as 1000101 states, only option is disable updates in some way, which is pretty much impossible except for simply not using steam.

Nobody ever read my posts entirely, ever moderators, God, why???

Quotedon't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.

I developed some mod, good, very good, it adds few guns and few items, simple, people likes cat launchers, pony with rainbow attack and BFG from doom, but actually it's just rick roll .GIF player that break saves for unknown reason related to random defs with tailing numbers.

Then, suddenly, i decided to RENAME some defs, just for teh drama, no real reason.
Instead of checking my mod for issues and save\loading compatibility, i just push "update" button laughing in manner similar to doctor evil from special agent parody.

1. check issues on local build before pushing - nope
2. check save\loading on local build before pushing - nope
3. dedicated some time to version adapter to load games from prev versions - nope
4. just leaving deprecated defs? I SAID NO PEOPLE MUST SUFFER!!!11
5. adding some useless color tags to few items - YES!
6. pressing push button - OFC YES!!!1111
7. then change something again few moments later and push it again!

avoid developers like me, i am cancer and will make nothing good ever.

case 2

I developed not very good, it is not insanely popular, but i really cares about my players, all hooks have removal routines, everything have version\signature checks, it ever checks database integrity and compatibility with other mods and instead of failing miserably, provide user friendly warning about expected issues.

Before ever thinking about publishing update, i check it locally for multiple hours, ask my friends on Linux\MAC to check platform stuff.
I perfectly sure that update wont cause any issues.

If i can't fix issues related to backward compatibility, i push update that adds warning to existing version, and publish next version of mod as separate workshop item, allowing users to decide self when and how they updates.

Ah yes, reason of mod "not very good" is simple, instead of mashing keys mindlessly and adding zillion guns i plan ahead, check other mods, running tests, doing tracing and ever heap shots to ensure stability and performance, that cost additional time and resources and i have less time to make fancy content that everyone loves, sadly, nobody loves internals and tech, all need just fancy sprites.

System is good, not every developer is good and it's up to user, to decide, is developer good or not, it's just like games on steam, you can get piece of crap with 3rd party DRM for 60 buks and some brilliant indie ever without steam hooks (some games on steam does not *actually* need steam to run, such games are basically DRM free) for 10 buks.

You will never make proper decision without reading reviews, checking screenshots and videos, workshop is same.

Quote'GUYS I HAEV UPDATE READY 2 GO!!!!1!' ;)
I push update that adds popup window that cannot be closed instantly with warning about update and what will happen after that update with savegames.
Same window as for mod pushing, but with 30 secs countdown.
You don't ever need to read anything anywhere, i will FORCE you to read my warning.

In worst case i will include "An appeal from Mod Author, RawCode" as unskippable fullscreen video that will play for a minute with my ugly face trying to speak English, this will happen every time you run the game.

I have strong feeling, that everyone "want to talk" but does not want to actually work to overcome issues, instead of stating "nobody read posts" that is indeed true, we should discuss how to force users to read stuff.
My suggestion:


[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

skullywag

I did read your post.

If someone is going to do that then its either A. An honest mistake, people make those. or B. a malicious act, which yes I agree you as a subscriber want to avoid but no one knows what someones motives are on the internet. These people will gain a reputation for doing things wrong and people will start to avoid them. Asking the possible subscriber to know that upfront just isnt possible unless there is history there.

The modders in this community try to distill our knowledge and offer support as we can (well I do anyway) even if its not code level support but simply "how to be a better developer".

Any extra steps over how the steam workshop integration works needs Ludeon to add to the current process, we are working with what we currently have and what we currently have WILL break peoples saves if an update is pushed that does so, theres no getting around this currently apart from the "new mod" approach you have mentioned above, this however leads to the breaking of the history of the mod and is now no longer a single source of information/stats/support for the mod and adds "technical debt" for the developer. This is bad.

The only true fix for this issue is not not to use steam in its current format or Ludeon has to make a change their end.
Skullywag modded to death.
I'd never met an iterator I liked....until Zhentar saved me.
Why Unity5, WHY do you forsake me?

RawCode

If individual do not understand that he break saves for people, he wont use "separate workshop item" method, because he do not understand that he is breaking saves...

In reality, he wont use any method, he will just update, few days later he will update again, don't you understand it?

He will do same on forum and unaware user that does not make backups will fall into same problem - no old version to download from forum, new version break saves and no local backup...

skullywag

Yeah thats my point, theres nothing we can do about that, after a while this modder will gain a reputation for being a game breaker and people will stop using the mod. I think we are agreeing on the same thing lol. Im just stating that there is very little the player/other modders can do here, its down to Ludeon or Valve to correct the broken behaviour.
Skullywag modded to death.
I'd never met an iterator I liked....until Zhentar saved me.
Why Unity5, WHY do you forsake me?

Tortuosit

Hey guys, thanks. So it's like in ArmA (there old/saved variables etc. would have to work in the new mod code): I have to weigh it up. Persistent gameplay, long-term saves-> more conservative modding, i.e. manually.  No important saves: workshop is possible.

All in all workshop + mods is generally useless for me. I wish Steam sometimes had more proper ideas. They have so much money. E.g. a UI where you can stop mod auto updating. Or a per-mod option. Or mod developer can make initially set a prefered update setting for his mod. Or something even deeper...

1000101

Quote from: Tortuosit on July 25, 2016, 10:11:20 AMI wish Steam sometimes had more proper ideas. ... E.g. a UI where you can stop mod auto updating. Or a per-mod option.

The irony is that Steam originally had that option (before WS existed) but for some retarded non-reasons they removed it.  Probably because game developers whined at them that they were getting bug reports about issues that were fixed from users who hadn't updated their games so, Valve caved and forced everyone to update.  In turn they broke users games and as we all know - Big business doesn't give a shit about the end user.

I was dead seriously about the solution being just don't use Workshop to upload mods to.  Otherwise the user is going to have to suffer with the possibility of the game/save being broken.  But, since the game dev can break your game and force it on you, why should modders be any different in the context of Steam/Workshop?

Regarding RawCodes wall of text - which I did read btw, I read almost every post from RawCode as I think he's fairly brilliant and I try to glean every bit of knowledge I can from him - Creating a new mod entry on Workshop is exactly the wrong answer for many reasons (many of which have already been mentioned and don't warrant repeating).  The proper solution would be for a mass exodus of their user base to any other platform or simply just refraining from using their service as a boycott until they make the needed improvements to their system to put the end user back in control but, that will never happen and is just a pipe dream.
(2*b)||!(2*b) - That is the question.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world - those that understand binary and those that don't.

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