[1.0] Controlled combat testing results - 15 tests done (updated 19th Jul 2018)

Started by XeoNovaDan, July 08, 2018, 07:26:39 AM

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XeoNovaDan

So, I'm officially taking requests for testing for those who perhaps want to see which equipment combination fares better in combat - all tests are 1v1 unless stated otherwise. You can be as specific about the equipment as you want, since I've made a quick devmode modification that allows me to be very specific with what gets spawned (e.g. only spawn excellent golden knives), so setup is much easier there.

Of course, I'll only accept requests that are reasonably easy to test in a controlled environment, at least for now. You can also specify any deviations from the standard testing methodology that's shown below (e.g. skill levels to test, cover etc.).

Tests conducted so far & results:
Build 1958:
Melee vs. Megaspider || Longsword/Spear vs. Scyther || Mace/Spear vs. Scyther/Centipede (meta until build 1968) || Sniper/Bolt-Action/Charge Lance vs. Lancer || Level 14 Shooter w/ Masterwork Power Armour + Masterwork Charge Lance/Rifle vs. Centipede || Level 8 w/ Longsword vs. Level 15 w/ Knife || Charge Rifle vs. Machine Pistol w/ different armour types || Knife vs. Bolt-Action/Revolver/Autopistol w/ varying armour and skill combinations

Build 1959:
Level 7 & 14 Melee w/ different Trait and Armour combinations || Excellent Power Armour + Plasteel Longsword (w/ and w/o Joywire) vs. Two Megaspiders (1v2) || Longsword/Spear/Mace vs. Scyther/Centipede/Eachother update || Longword/Spear/Mace scaling over various armour types

Build 1960:
Plasteel Longsword/Spear and Uranium mace scaling over various armour types

Build 1969:
Mace/Longsword/Spear vs. Scyther/Centipede Update #2 || Mace/Longsword/Spear vs. Centipede (2v1 and 3v1)




Standard Testing Methodology

General:
* All pawns are trait-neutral (i.e. no tough people, wimps, brawlers, careful shooters or trigger-happies), and healthy adults
* All pawns will have level 14 shooting and melee skills
* All equipment will be of normal quality
* There are walls between each fighting duo so that nobody else gets hit by any stray shots
* Trials with either combat-relevant inspirations or trauma savantism (unless the pawn is already down) aren't counted, and thus redone

Weapon Testing:
* Armoured testing will be done with flak pants, a flak vest, a steel simple helmet and a flak jacket

Apparel Testing:
* Ranged testing for will be done with assault rifles at a distance of 20 cells
* Sharp melee weapon testing will be done with steel gladii
* Blunt melee weapon testing will be done with steel maces
* The terrain is concrete, so there's no dirt kicking

Results are determined by 10 trials, with each trial being 10 1v1 battles happening simultaneously, so each set of results has a sample size of 100 battles. Scores per trial are simply determined by how many people on each team are left standing. These are logged in an excel spreadsheet, and the final product will look something like this (click to expand):



This is what the actual test setup looks like:


Greep

#1
Bug testing :D

Megaspider vs pawn with (all poor) plasteel gladius, steel plate armor, simple helmet,
Same, only with (good)
Same with power armor, power helmet
Same with plasteel longsword

Also, since I'm lazy, just a straight up stat comparison of plasteel plate vs power armor, all normal. ::)
1.0 Mods: Raid size limiter:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42721.0

MineTortoise:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42792.0
HELLO!

(WIPish)Strategy Mode: The experienced player's "vanilla"
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43044.0

Ser Kitteh

You the man, Dan.

Anyway, the rounds:

Melee spear v scyther
Melee longsword v scyther
Melee longsword v melee spear

Unless I am misunderstanding things, will this be viable?

XeoNovaDan

#3
Yep, both sound pretty good to test!

Greep - I'll probably also throw in a run with level 8 melees and plasteel gladii, along with the 'standard' level 20 procedure, just to paint a more realistic picture. Edit: Also, power armour and power armour helmet + plasteel longsword will only be done with good quality since that too would be more realistic, plus otherwise the test run count will get pretty damn high.

Canute

And look if Brawler trait maybe made a different.

Greep

Ah yeah I was just meaning the four tests, with the first only being poor.  Thanks :D
1.0 Mods: Raid size limiter:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42721.0

MineTortoise:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42792.0
HELLO!

(WIPish)Strategy Mode: The experienced player's "vanilla"
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43044.0

XeoNovaDan

#6
Quote from: Greep on July 08, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Megaspider vs pawn with (all poor) plasteel gladius, steel plate armor, simple helmet,
Same, only with (good)
Same with power armor, power helmet
Same with plasteel longsword

Here she is!



I was tempted to skip testing the longsword + power armour since gladius + power armour already had a perfect run, but tested for the fun of it anyway.

As for stats (sharp / blunt / heat):
Plasteel plate armour - 92 / 46 / 78.8
Power armour - 117 / 45 / 54
Both have the same amount of coverage




Quote from: Ser Kitteh on July 08, 2018, 08:44:06 AM
Melee spear v scyther
Melee longsword v scyther
Melee longsword v melee spear

I also threw in some results for level 8 melee with spears since 8 melee is a realistic amount of skill to have. Standard testing methodology was applied:



The spear results are quite interesting, performing significantly better than the longsword against mechanoids. It's probably down to the fact that spears hit internals way more often than longswords... like artificial brains. I'm now intrigued to see what performs better against scythers: spears or maces.




Quote from: Canute on July 08, 2018, 08:54:14 AM
And look if Brawler trait maybe made a different.

Anything specific to test?

Canute

Quote from: XeoNovaDan on July 08, 2018, 10:02:38 AM
Quote from: Canute on July 08, 2018, 08:54:14 AM
And look if Brawler trait maybe made a different.

Anything specific to test?
I just thought about the request people asked before.
And maybe a similar test like the Megaspider, but instead vs a Centipede.

Ser Kitteh

stuff stuff discord

Anyway while waiting for your maces v spears analysis, I shall suggest another:

The issue with sniper rifles is that they take far too long, and the niche of long range is very suspect and I have been suspectful of them ever since I got my hands on one back in A14.

I don't know exactly how you would test damage output because the pros of long range is the pawn is relatively safe. So how about:

pawn w/sniper vs lancer
pawn w/bolt-action vs lancer
pawn w/charge lance vs lancer

Alternatively even pawn vs anybody will do, I am far more interested how consistent the damage output is. It could be a naked tribal for all I care.

Greep

ooooooooo. 

Charge lance vs centipede compared with charge rifle vs centipede.  Masterwork quality on both, full masterwork power armor on both as well.  Range for both: max charge rifle range. 14 shooting
1.0 Mods: Raid size limiter:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42721.0

MineTortoise:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42792.0
HELLO!

(WIPish)Strategy Mode: The experienced player's "vanilla"
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43044.0

XeoNovaDan

Mace vs. spear against mechanoids done, and it looks like we've found the new meta, ladies and gents - for SirKitteh and Canute:



Although no sane person would dare 1v1 a centipede with a somewhat mediocre melee person in average armour, it actually seems to be viable due to how effective spears are. This is most likely because of the fact that centipedes have very few internal parts, and spears have a tendency to target internals. The most noteworthy internal part which seems to give spears such an edge against mechanoids is the artificial brain.

There was a slight setup change for centipede testing too: I had to force everybody into 2x1s with the centipedes so that the centipede actually stuck to melee rather than attempting to use their ranged weapons. All mechanoids had the 'berserk' mental state so that they were guaranteed to attack.

Also bear in mind that these are only normal quality steel spears too; a higher quality plasteel spear would be even more effective!

For brawlers, it'd basically just be these results but adjusted upwards slightly.




Quote from: Ser Kitteh on July 08, 2018, 10:28:15 AM
pawn w/sniper vs lancer
pawn w/bolt-action vs lancer
pawn w/charge lance vs lancer

Quote from: Greep on July 08, 2018, 10:49:13 AM
Charge lance vs centipede compared with charge rifle vs centipede.  Masterwork quality on both, full masterwork power armor on both as well.  Range for both: max charge rifle range. 14 shooting

Going to test both of these next. Just figured I'd get this out first since this is really interesting.

Canute

Wow, spears the new superior weapon, even against Centipede with their high piercing armor.
So the next colony will be a full mellee colony, and everyone with brawler skill can get recruited but jogger prevered ! :-)


XeoNovaDan

Three more tests onto the list!

Quote from: Ser Kitteh on July 08, 2018, 10:28:15 AM
pawn w/sniper vs lancer
pawn w/bolt-action vs lancer
pawn w/charge lance vs lancer

Results:



Only 7 lancers were willing to co-operate for the sniper testing; 6 would fire at 28 cells, and the 7th would fire at the charge lance's maximum range of 36 cells. As a result, there's only a sample size of 70 battles for the sniper testing. Mechanoid ranged testing is definitely harder to do!

As for the bolt-action rifle and charge lance testing, only 8 lancers were co-operating, so they both have sample sizes of 80 battles.




Quote from: Greep on July 08, 2018, 10:49:13 AM
Charge lance vs centipede compared with charge rifle vs centipede.  Masterwork quality on both, full masterwork power armor on both as well.  Range for both: max charge rifle range. 14 shooting

Results:



Only 8 out of the 10 centipedes were willing to actually fight, so there's only a sample size of 80 battles for minigun and heavy charge blaster testing.

Do note that the inferno cannon testing also didn't have any cover, and there was a 'backboard' that the centipedes could occasionally 'bounce' off of - flawed testing, I know, but didn't realise until too late and didn't feel like re-testing inferno cannons. Inferno cannon testing was definitely the hardest one to do yet since it's one I had to micromanage to make sure that pawns kept as close to the charge rifle's max range as possible (unless their movement was really bad), and so that they didn't spend most of their time extinguishing fires. As a result, inferno cannons only have a sample size of 20 battles.

Having some hard cover (e.g. walls), or having firefoam poppers would dramatically improve these results.




Quote from: Ser Kitteh (RimWorld Discord)i am interested then, how well an 8 melee with a longsword
does against a 15 melee with a knife

Finally, finishing off with an easy one:



This was with armour. Standard methodology.

Greep

Well you'd be insane to engage a centipede with an inferno cannon without a shield decoy or turret decoy anyways, I was mainly looking to see how the lance piercing fares.  Looks like the rifle is still better which is good :)
1.0 Mods: Raid size limiter:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42721.0

MineTortoise:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=42792.0
HELLO!

(WIPish)Strategy Mode: The experienced player's "vanilla"
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43044.0

XeoNovaDan

Indeed! Also, changing up the methodology slightly: future tests will be run with level 14 pawns if skill levels aren't specified instead of level 20s. This is since level 14 is a much more realistically sustainable skill level, so future tests will be more representative of what'll happen with actual gameplay.