[A13] Combat Realism v.1.6.5 (08.05.16) Final release

Started by NoImageAvailable, January 29, 2015, 12:27:41 PM

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LittleGreenStone

I have a strange problem with mortals. I've been CR and CR defence and noticed that mortal shells move extremely slow, little more than 1 cell/second.

Not only that, but I've downloaded Rimfire recently, and noticed that the grenades the launcher shoots behave the exact same way.

All other weapons, including CR defence turrets (the big one too), seem to behave as intended.

Is there a reason for that behaviour? Any way to fix it?

Thanks!

NoImageAvailable

Travel times depend on the steepness of the trajectory. For the mortar that means engaging closer targets produces longer flight times since it fires in a steep arc. It also has multiple charges with different muzzle velocities so you probably just fired close to one of the breaking points and got a very steep trajectory of 70-80° or something. The grenade launcher is just comparatively slow in general.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

LittleGreenStone

#587
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on December 08, 2015, 02:20:40 PM
Travel times depend on the steepness of the trajectory. For the mortar that means engaging closer targets produces longer flight times since it fires in a steep arc. It also has multiple charges with different muzzle velocities so you probably just fired close to one of the breaking points and got a very steep trajectory of 70-80° or something. The grenade launcher is just comparatively slow in general.

MY MISTAKE regarding the grenade launcher; I've set <flyOverhead> "true", which resulted in the speed drop due to this angle thing.

I'm starting to understand the mechanics behind it, still, it makes very little sense to me.
It's not my place to tell what should and should not be, so I'll just ask:

is there an easy way to reduce, or remove this effect without setting <flyOverhead> "false"?



Now I'll rant a bit;

Mortal's max range is 700, that's over twice the size of the maps I'm playing on. That's not a problem, but I do not understand why would anyone point it for example 75° upwards to target something 350 tiles away, when 15° would be the desired angle, which has the same range, but essentially reduces traveling time by 3/4.

That is, unless the target is behind a wall.
Then a 75° would be preferred, but then again, for maximum range (700 here) 45° is the angle, whit which it would be impossible to hit anything behind the wall, but the wall itself. This feature doesn't exist in the game, so IMO it's unreasonable to use high angle shots for close-range, especially without any obstacles in the way.

Especially when my crippled pawn can fire the mortar, run to the targeted location with peg legs, eat his last meal and die from the just-arriving shell.

As it is, I might just set <flyOverhead> "false" for every weapon that has it.

Alistaire

This decision was made because there is no reason for any weapon besides a mortar to have <flyOverhead> set to true. CR is hardcoded to always use low flying arcs UNLESS flyOverhead is true and only in that case will high flying arcs be used. Mortars don't fire much under 40 degrees and because "we could not be asked" to implement that, it was left as it is now.

The design choice is rationalized quite well in my opinion but of course whatever you were trying to do by setting flyOverhead to true in CR will not work. I don't know why you would want Rimfire grenade launchers to fire overhead since CR already implements projectile heights and hitchecks will only be performed in sensible locations due to that.

NoImageAvailable

Like you said yourself, the reason to fire at such a steep angle is to be able to clear obstructions at close range. The defining characteristic of a mortar is that it fires at elevations of 40°+, it doesn't have the maximum range of a howitzer but it also doesn't have the minimum range either so when you're firing at close range (which as far as artillery is concerned includes everything in Rimworld, a howitzer would have a minimum range larger than the largest map) a mortar becomes the superior choice because it provides the ability for indirect fire were other artillery pieces would not.

See also this image for illustration:


Now you could ask why the mortar can't use direct fire against targets it has line of sight on and the answer is that a) mortars due to their construction typically can't be aimed below 40° or so b) it would be kinda difficult to code and c) because that's basically what the cannon turret does already.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

LittleGreenStone

Quote from: Alistaire on December 08, 2015, 03:34:27 PM
The design choice is rationalized quite well in my opinion but of course whatever you were trying to do by setting flyOverhead to true in CR will not work. I don't know why you would want Rimfire grenade launchers to fire overhead since CR already implements projectile heights and hitchecks will only be performed in sensible locations due to that.

Whatever I'm trying to do? Well, I'm trying to give myself the ability to fight mechanoids of course! I've already changed the projectile to shoot EMP nades. Them being as tough as they are, equipped with weapons with more range and damage, I've lost 7 and managed to recover 2 colonists out of 11, against 4 centipedes and 6-7 scythers, after an "ancient ship" event.
Not sure which one is worse, schythers essentially one-shotting my colonists from behind cover, or centipedes downing them in one burst.
I'm changing that, that's what I'm doing.

Back to mortars; I had 4 (since I could not build howitzers [not sure if possible, even if it is I wasn't there yet], and not one trader sold them), but those nimble centipedes dodged the mortar shells effortlessly. Not using mortals, or only using them against sieges would be fine by me, but with the new flyOverhead, I've lost my best card against centipedes, and it's quite frustrating.

LittleGreenStone

Quote from: NoImageAvailable on December 08, 2015, 03:51:35 PMThe defining characteristic of a mortar is that it fires at elevations of 40°+
Yes, and another defining characteristic of a mortar is that it can be easily carried by a single person. The reason for them usually not being able to fire below 40 degrees safely is because the ground supports it, below 40 degrees it becomes unstable. At least generally, because there are different kinds of mortars. In Rimworld, we have a 2x2 tiles big mortar emplacement that doesn't look like, nor acts like your regular mortar.

No matter, I'm not here to tell you how it works or how you should change things, I'm here to ask if it's possible to change, without bathing myself in confusing computer magic. A question you have not answered.

Though based on what Alistaire said, I'd guess it is not.

TLHeart

Quote from: LittleGreenStone on December 08, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: Alistaire on December 08, 2015, 03:34:27 PM
The design choice is rationalized quite well in my opinion but of course whatever you were trying to do by setting flyOverhead to true in CR will not work. I don't know why you would want Rimfire grenade launchers to fire overhead since CR already implements projectile heights and hitchecks will only be performed in sensible locations due to that.

Whatever I'm trying to do? Well, I'm trying to give myself the ability to fight mechanoids of course! I've already changed the projectile to shoot EMP nades. Them being as tough as they are, equipped with weapons with more range and damage, I've lost 7 and managed to recover 2 colonists out of 11, against 4 centipedes and 6-7 scythers, after an "ancient ship" event.
Not sure which one is worse, schythers essentially one-shotting my colonists from behind cover, or centipedes downing them in one burst.
I'm changing that, that's what I'm doing.

Back to mortars; I had 4 (since I could not build howitzers [not sure if possible, even if it is I wasn't there yet], and not one trader sold them), but those nimble centipedes dodged the mortar shells effortlessly. Not using mortals, or only using them against sieges would be fine by me, but with the new flyOverhead, I've lost my best card against centipedes, and it's quite frustrating.

Sounds like you avoid using the emp mortars, that have a huge range of effect.

NoImageAvailable

Quote from: LittleGreenStone on December 08, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
Whatever I'm trying to do? Well, I'm trying to give myself the ability to fight mechanoids of course! I've already changed the projectile to shoot EMP nades. Them being as tough as they are, equipped with weapons with more range and damage, I've lost 7 and managed to recover 2 colonists out of 11, against 4 centipedes and 6-7 scythers, after an "ancient ship" event.
Not sure which one is worse, schythers essentially one-shotting my colonists from behind cover, or centipedes downing them in one burst.
I'm changing that, that's what I'm doing.

Back to mortars; I had 4 (since I could not build howitzers [not sure if possible, even if it is I wasn't there yet], and not one trader sold them), but those nimble centipedes dodged the mortar shells effortlessly. Not using mortals, or only using them against sieges would be fine by me, but with the new flyOverhead, I've lost my best card against centipedes, and it's quite frustrating.

If you're trying to nerf Mechanoids, why aren't you changing, you know, the actual Mechanoids? I'm currently working on other projects but once I get back to CR one of the things on my to-do list is revisit Mechanoid balance.

CR Defence has a cannon turret sold by combat suppliers, it does direct fire and is highly accurate. There is no howitzers in this mod because their minimum range would extend over the entire map. They'd be relegated to direct fire so they would just be a cannon turret in every way except people would keep asking why it can't do indirect fire.

Quote from: LittleGreenStone on December 08, 2015, 05:53:50 PM
Yes, and another defining characteristic of a mortar is that it can be easily carried by a single person. The reason for them usually not being able to fire below 40 degrees safely is because the ground supports it, below 40 degrees it becomes unstable. At least generally, because there are different kinds of mortars. In Rimworld, we have a 2x2 tiles big mortar emplacement that doesn't look like, nor acts like your regular mortar.

No, only very light mortars can be carried by one person, all the heavier ones are either crew-served or mounted on vehicles. The Rimworld mortar might resemble an 18th century mortar more than a modern day one but that hardly matters considering the definition of a mortar still is an artillery piece that fires low-velocity projectiles in a high arc.

QuoteNo matter, I'm not here to tell you how it works or how you should change things, I'm here to ask if it's possible to change, without bathing myself in confusing computer magic. A question you have not answered.

Though based on what Alistaire said, I'd guess it is not.

I thought Alistaire answered that question sufficiently. CR uses the flyOverhead tag to determine whether a weapon fires in a high or low arc, changing it would require delving into the code base and make changes to the verb code. If you have knowledge of C# you could do it with relatively little effort but if you want to count that as "computer magic" then no, it is not possible.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

Alistaire

Literally the only difference between flyOverhead and non-flyOverhead is whether thick roofs are hit and what arc the projectile flies in. EVERY projectile can freely intercept ANYTHING and the only additional check is whether that intercept is at the correct height or not.

There is no reason to add flyOverhead to weaponry, basically. I don't get how it would at all fix your problem with the strength of mechanoids (which are resilient to many damage types).

LittleGreenStone

Quote from: NoImageAvailable on December 09, 2015, 04:55:56 AM
If you're trying to nerf Mechanoids, why aren't you changing, you know, the actual Mechanoids? I'm currently working on other projects but once I get back to CR one of the things on my to-do list is revisit Mechanoid balance.

I'm not trying to nerf Mechanoids, probably that's why.

LittleGreenStone

Quote from: Alistaire on December 09, 2015, 12:01:22 PM
Literally the only difference between flyOverhead and non-flyOverhead is whether thick roofs are hit and what arc the projectile flies in. EVERY projectile can freely intercept ANYTHING and the only additional check is whether that intercept is at the correct height or not.

There is no reason to add flyOverhead to weaponry, basically. I don't get how it would at all fix your problem with the strength of mechanoids (which are resilient to many damage types).

Look, I might not be able to tinker with codes, but observation is something I can do.
Without flyOverhead, I couldn't shoot grenades over walls. With it, I could.
Again, I do not know what's in the code and how it should work, but those are the results I've observed.

The benefits are self-explanatory.

Grimandevil

Quote from: LittleGreenStone on December 08, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
Whatever I'm trying to do? Well, I'm trying to give myself the ability to fight mechanoids of course! I've already changed the projectile to shoot EMP nades. Them being as tough as they are, equipped with weapons with more range and damage, I've lost 7 and managed to recover 2 colonists out of 11, against 4 centipedes and 6-7 scythers, after an "ancient ship" event.
Not sure which one is worse, schythers essentially one-shotting my colonists from behind cover, or centipedes downing them in one burst.
I'm changing that, that's what I'm doing.
u probably just shouldnt fight em in big open fields with fragile humans, but lure them in close quarters and use some EMP nades and tactics. or u can shell em with 120mm and AGS, they'll never have the chance.
welcome to the Rimworld - a world full of cannibal drug-addicted psychos, but free of vegetarians.

dareddevil7

You know what you need to go with suppression? Humanoids pissing their pants in fear when they hear a large caliber round

eatKenny

can you make a gun malfunction/jam? after every burst the guns have a certain possibility(related to gun typ and quality) to jam, which will take extra time to fire the next burst.