Suggestions request: Ways to fulfill a "joy" need

[Mathenaut]

Thats apart of the risk/reward mechanic. Colonists need food, they have to spend time and space making and storing food. Pawns need sleep, they spend that time not working.

That's not risk/reward, that's basic management. Risk/reward doesn't mean cause/effect or do something/something happens.

The only real risk/reward elements at present are cryosleep pods, attacking idle/sleeping raiders, and running with certain mood-penalty traits that give bonuses.

There is no risk and no reward in keeping your food/rest levels managed, it's mostly just a soft-failure state for not providing basic needs of your colonists (putting gas in your car is not risk/reward, a non-operating car is just a failure state of not providing gas).

It's sounding like this new stress system just just another one. Which again, it isn't a horrible thing, but it's ultimately just another timesink. Mostly a question of whether smaller colonies will hurt more for less daylight to work with or if larger colonies will trip over the infrastructure of providing this need to many people.

[TSO]

I had this real badass granny colonist who did no dumb labour and only did doctoring, hunting, research (which ran out eventually) so eventually just those two things and raider battles...

I started stories in my mind that she was actually the colony leader. She had high social and handled all communications and requests for help and organized the colony into defensive positions in a room when the turrets fell...

The character didn't have any violence traits but I felt like that was her joy... hunting and protecting her own.... and when alcohol arrived randomly one day... taking some drinks... (she wasn't into chemicals... just drank randomly?? cool... she needs a cigar to seem more hard boiled)


So going back to joy... I can see how it could be applied to the case of some colonists and cabin fever perhaps. I never got the image in mind that the things my colonist specialize in was something they grew tired of.... rather they reveled in their specialty...

The builders designed grand strongholds and prisoner holding areas...
Miners created safe havens from mortars and provided essential resources while accidentally discovering caverns and rooms...
And so on...

I'm trying to fit Joy requirements into my image of my colony and it's a struggle atm...
Making babies and seeing them grow?
Selling their products?
installing art they made...
I've always felt birthdays could perhaps hold a simple celebration...
Some of the lore goes into how ppl on glitter worlds did plastic surgery and mind trips?? maybe they spend time in their rooms on such recreation?? Or include some recreation in their current tasks??

[Johnny Masters]

It's sounding like this new stress system just just another one. Which again, it isn't a horrible thing, but it's ultimately just another timesink. Mostly a question of whether smaller colonies will hurt more for less daylight to work with or if larger colonies will trip over the infrastructure of providing this need to many people.

It does sound redundant, but its one of those details that make a game a better game, it makes your colony to feel alive and your pawns humans, not robots. I also like the added challenge of another thing to juggle.

ex.: We could use a slide to set how much time per day a pawn spends on personal relief or perhaps a colony wide "break" time, similar to sleeping and lunch periods, possibly a mix of both.

[Mathenaut]

I don't find monotony challenging. Maybe that's just me.

Just like eating and sleeping provide nothing of character to a colonist, adding what is functionally an additional nap time doesn't provide character to a colonist.

I'd argue about what it does for gameplay, but I'd have to see what is ultimately done with it to say too much on it. There's potential for something here. We'll see.

[BetaSpectre]

I dislike having to put more effort away from building and into colonist needs. IMO there should be machines that let you grow food without needing to lay seeds or harvest.

Its time consuming. Mining. Trading. Eating. Cooking. Building. Growning. Cutting. Food. Trees. Now Drug Additiction. Insanity. ETC. Sickness.

At some point you have to either let 10 people starve or cook/grow food. Basically. Its a boring aspect after a while.

[Johnny Masters]

I don't find monotony challenging. Maybe that's just me.

Just like eating and sleeping provide nothing of character to a colonist, adding what is functionally an additional nap time doesn't provide character to a colonist.

I'd argue about what it does for gameplay, but I'd have to see what is ultimately done with it to say too much on it. There's potential for something here. We'll see.

Perhaps you're a robot?

Character Idle time is what makes a build/manage game really stand out from just a chart game.

Games like dungeon keeper, theme hospital, the sims, space colony, startopia, prison architect, evil genius, etc all had some sort of "joy" feature and its what sets them apart from mediocre games or games based solely on calculated efficiency (aka, most RTS games).

Since RW is such a hybrid, and focus on a small number of survivors, everything that makes each one of them something apart is a plus.

I dislike having to put more effort away from building and into colonist needs. IMO there should be machines that let you grow food without needing to lay seeds or harvest.

Its time consuming. Mining. Trading. Eating. Cooking. Building. Growning. Cutting. Food. Trees. Now Drug Additiction. Insanity. ETC. Sickness.

At some point you have to either let 10 people starve or cook/grow food. Basically. Its a boring aspect after a while.

Hhaha, this is what's wonderful and confusing about rimworld. For me, the game IS about the time consuming stuff and managing them.

What would you say is your focus, combat or building?

[Tynan]

I don't find monotony challenging. Maybe that's just me.

Just like eating and sleeping provide nothing of character to a colonist, adding what is functionally an additional nap time doesn't provide character to a colonist.

At some point you have to either let 10 people starve or cook/grow food. Basically. Its a boring aspect after a while.

RimWorld is largely about managing colonist needs. If managing colonist needs is really something you don't want to do, honestly, you might be playing the wrong game.

Beta, if you just want to lay blocks, MineCraft and its imitators are great for that.

Math, if you want pure strategy and tactics and everything to have a crystalline purpose, StarCraft II is an awesome game for that.

If you want generated stories and a complex mini-society with needs to take care of, with some combat and struggle and tactical action around the edges, RimWorld is your game.

Simply saying that the game should be a different game is not useful feedback, and it's way off topic for this thread. Saying that you don't want colonists to have needs is also off-topic for this thread.

Now, back to the original topic please; I'd love to hear any more ideas for fun sources anyone can think of.

[apljee]

@Tynan - Napping?

edit: Possibly an RNG, where if the number is less than or equal to 0.33 it is a dream, if the number is greater than 0.33 but less than 0.66 it is a normal nap, and it if is greater than or equal to 0.66 it is a nightmare, each with corresponding joy values?

[Keychan]

Exploring the new world - Could lead to area's of interest, a colonist could put a small flag marker in an interesting area.
Excavating/Treasure hunting - Could require a tool table where colonist goes to pick supplies up before they go to a random area or an area of interest.  They could find trinkets for themselves, something random that benefits the colony, or nothing at all.

Of course these could be jobs, but this is also something that people do themselves on their free time.  To explore your surroundings and to want to find wonders and mysteries about the new world you're on is natural, but your top priority is building up the colony.
I know you would like to implement an artifact system for research, what better way to get artifacts than by someone's adventurous curiosity.  It distracts the mind and gives something to think about rather than just work and survival.

I'm also really curious how much time colonist would be spending on fun activities.  If it varies on the activity then I would understand, I just don't want my cook doing jumping jacks a quarter of the day when everyone's eating raw muffalo meat.

[Mathenaut]

Perhaps you're a robot?

Character Idle time is what makes a build/manage game really stand out from just a chart game.

Games like dungeon keeper, theme hospital, the sims, space colony, startopia, prison architect, evil genius, etc all had some sort of "joy" feature and its what sets them apart from mediocre games or games based solely on calculated efficiency (aka, most RTS games).

Since RW is such a hybrid, and focus on a small number of survivors, everything that makes each one of them something apart is a plus.

But you're just name-dropping games, this isn't saying anything. Those games had similar mechanics but where distinguished by theme and elements of gameplay. If you think that the break rooms were the distinguishing point of Evil Genius, I'd have difficulty believing you played the game.

Not to mention, all of those games were far greater scale than Rimworld with focus/emphasis on design, and strategy, not micromanagement of minions. Rimworld has a very limited soft goal, no major campaign, and the colonists aren't just a means to an end, they're most of the game.

There's no point in even bringing up those games if you don't know elements of how they play or contrast to each other, much less to Rimworld. What we have here is different in a good way and understanding those differences is sort of key.

RimWorld is largely about managing colonist needs. If managing colonist needs is really something you don't want to do, honestly, you might be playing the wrong game.

If you want generated stories and a complex mini-society with needs to take care of, with some combat and struggle and tactical action around the edges, RimWorld is your game.

I think there might be a bit of a disconnect here. Or at least an ambiguity to clarify.

It's one thing to have colonist needs, that's not really the problem. The problem is that too much emphasis on juggling needs can severely reduce the storytelling potential. Past a point, it erodes on the management of large colonies, adds an awkward complication to harsh environment survival, hampers development of smaller colonies, and (perhaps most ironically) has practically zero impact on combat, as turrets and general combat performance are mostly unaffected by mood.

The worry is that adding more baggage will start encroaching on that tipping point. Though, I'll gladly eat my words if this turns out better than planned.

Just please make it more than another rest bar.

P.S.
As an aside, I don't think Rimworld needs to be Starcraft. If anything, I think that fewer zerg rush raids would be nice. Though I understand you're working on it and I look forward to seeing what you do.

[Tynan]

The problem is that too much emphasis on juggling needs can severely reduce the storytelling potential. Past a point, it erodes on the management of large colonies, adds an awkward complication to harsh environment survival, hampers development of smaller colonies, and (perhaps most ironically) has practically zero impact on combat, as turrets and general combat performance are mostly unaffected by mood.

The worry is that adding more baggage will start encroaching on that tipping point. Though, I'll gladly eat my words if this turns out better than planned.

I guess in the end I don't really understand what you're talking about. Given that I'll rebalance the whole game so that it is overall about as challenging as before, I don't see how more variety in needs reduces storytelling potential or makes it impossible to manage large colonies or smaller ones. Maybe you were imagining that I would just tack on the new needs and leave the rest of the game unchanged? Because to be clear - I'll shift numbers around to rebalance everything and make it all about as difficult to accomplish as it was before, but with more variation, depth, and choice.

I think that fewer zerg rush raids would be nice

I agree, and that's part of why I'm doing this system at all. Given everything is rebalanced with the fun need included, combat threats will be less frequent/intense because there are now other things for players to spend their time on. Adding new kind of challenges is the only way to reduce the constant zerg rushes while keeping the experience full and flowing.

Anyway, a bit off topic here. I appreciate all the ongoing suggestions as well!

[StarBlazer]

For all the psychos of my colony,killing. Huh...joy from killing...I like the sound of it...

[Johnny Masters]

But you're just name-dropping games, this isn't saying anything. Those games had similar mechanics but where distinguished by theme and elements of gameplay. If you think that the break rooms were the distinguishing point of Evil Genius, I'd have difficulty believing you played the game.

Not to mention, all of those games were far greater scale than Rimworld with focus/emphasis on design, and strategy, not micromanagement of minions. Rimworld has a very limited soft goal, no major campaign, and the colonists aren't just a means to an end, they're most of the game.

There's no point in even bringing up those games if you don't know elements of how they play or contrast to each other, much less to Rimworld. What we have here is different in a good way and understanding those differences is sort of key.

What? I'm refering to critical aclaimed games that have a similar concept of building and managment that happens to have a recreational aspect. I know everything there is to know about those games, i've played them a lot, bringing them up was quite to the point, i'm sorry you don't feel that way. My only mea culpa is coming across as saying that its only because of those recreational aspects that they are good, which is of course not true.

The break rooms in EG weren't the only thing that set it apart, but it was one of them. It made the game better, it made your minions feel like real people, not robots. Plus the tactical choices of where and how to design such rooms. That's my point.

Although i agree we have something different, which is good because otherwise i'd playing the oldies, is that there's a lot to learn from said oldies.


---
More joy stuff (forgive if already suggested)
-Broadcasting - A pawn might enjoy sticking by a comm console as some sort of dj/news communicator. Who knows, if we have broadcasting speakers around the colony people might get a small joy/mood out of it aswell.
-A jukebox - for the lone cigarette & coffee or for some jiving with the peeps (bonus points if we can hear the music or add owned mp3 music)
-Drinking contests
-Arm wrestling contests (after they are out of booze)
-Patrolling - Even without really needing it (as we would with fog of war), a combat oriented pawn might like to make sure everything is in order. It doesn't really separate from just a stroll, but if it says "patrolling" in the thoughts, that already makes a huge difference.
-Grooming - Bonus points if we can have mirrors (and wall sided objects). Extra joy from having luxury objects that take care of their own beauty, like makeup.
-Snow angels (while in snow heh)
-Feeding aquarium
-Sunbathing (not sure if already suggested)
-Praying (i'm not religious, but some pawns are)
-Gun cleaning; armor dusting
-Juggling (most likely potatoes)
-Build a sand sculpture
-Tell a joke
-Massage someone/Receive a massage
-Assembling a jigsaw puzzle
-Attempt to discover the meaning of life and all that
-Read the future
-Ouija board / S�ance
-Check if equipment is working. Like a repair, but you don't need to repair, it's just checking the integrity of your stuff.
-Celebrating a birthday (or other kinds of parties, possibly baking a cake)
-Fireworks
-Looking at ant farm
-Winding a clock
-Eating junk/luxury food

[Keymaster89]

Ok! my turn! i'll try to be useful! As Tynan are adding multi colonist bills:


-SPORTS: soccer, basket, volleyball, rugby, tennis, ecc. Can be done solo or duo for extra fun speed recovery (maybe even the whole colony for rapid wide fun, that will be epic  )

-PETS: pets are fun, if u'll add some kind of dog/cat/bird, taming them and playing with them will be fun. Also, animal companions will try to follow the owner around anytime and defend him from attackers. Will be really cool to see hunters and their hunting dog looking around for muffalos.

-SEX: well... sex is fun... and we already have a royal bad, so...

-VIRTUAL REALITY: In glitterworld worlds exist this kind of stasis pod where your consciousness will be ripped from your body and placed in a virtual world. Anything can be programmed in there, so any fun needs can be fulfilled, but can cause severe addiction and alienation.

-MUSIC: music instruments will really well fit in the item quality mechanic, plus if a colonist is playing/singing the ones arond him experience a  morale buff/debuff based on art skill and other colonists can join.

-WELCOME PARTY: when visitors come along to visit, you could start some kind of party, give them couple beers, food, singing and dancing, having good fun togheter and boosting faction reputation.

-STARING AT ARTS, PHOTOGRAPHY, PAINTING, JEWELERY: contemplate arts is fun for someone, taking picture, painting and jewelery should also be artworks that a colonist can practice beside sculpture.

-ROLEPLAYING: i don't know how to represent this but i'll put it in anyway. Could be some sort of acting or some D&D thing.

-FISHING: could also bring some food

-BIKE: if vehicles will ever be implemented, bicycles (or motocycles) will be a perfect fun based vehicle.

-MEDITATING AND YOGA
-READING AND WRITING BOOKS


Hope this will help you

[Kegereneku]

Character's background have a potential synergy in term of joy,
-the "famous person" trait can interact with the "fan" trait,
-two brawler can fight (on say a built tatami)
-physically sensitive person might get along... or not, same with that "mind-reader" trait I saw
...couldn't find back the full list of trait.

Plus potential diplomacy bonus
- There is a "famous person" trait
- there's a mean to communicate by radio
--> if that person like to sing -> there might be fan in other faction
--> if that person like to discuss -> same but not necessarily a singer (one can imagine he is a renowned scientist/philosopher/etc)
- in reverse a fan listening to radio might get a bonus

QUESTION FOR TYNAN :
Just to know, will colonist have a preferred occupation ?
(though it could make it hard to balance 2-persons recreation, the more you would have occupation, the less they would interact with each other)