[1.0] Combat Extended - 1.8.2 CE Melee released (17.11.2019)

Started by NoImageAvailable, June 09, 2017, 04:13:13 PM

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NoImageAvailable

Quote from: Gebunator on February 13, 2019, 10:37:25 AM
I probably should've elaborated my tactics more.

A screenshot of your defensive setup would help a lot.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

Facepunch

I apologize in advance for the stupid question, but I notice there's 20mm ShVAK ammo, which frankly makes me wet, but I can't find any weapons platforms that use it. Am I blind as hell or wtf?

NoImageAvailable

Quote from: Facepunch on February 13, 2019, 10:24:04 PM
I apologize in advance for the stupid question, but I notice there's 20mm ShVAK ammo, which frankly makes me wet, but I can't find any weapons platforms that use it. Am I blind as hell or wtf?

That's there for other gun mods to use.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

Faryzal2020

Quote from: nickdos on February 13, 2019, 11:03:38 AM

yeah using a machine gun against a tank totally makes sense right? @noimageincluded
No, the uranium slug turrets exist for this sole purpose and make perfect sense, they are to counter centipedes and are the only weapon that makes sense if you really want to be """realistic""" with this mod.
Strange how attacking a tank with shotguns and grenades are supposed to be realistic when in reality all heavy armor vehicles in history were fought with big guns.

DID SOMEONE SAYS BIG GUNS
eh but i still can't do a CE patch to my >BIG GUNS< mod because of the damn turret size issue
Check out my mod: Definitely More Cannons

Fafn1r

Running a new game with CE, noticed that boomalopes only produce FSX now and can't be milked for chemfuel. Do you guys still have both?

TheWrongColonist

Quote from: Fafn1r on February 14, 2019, 08:07:25 PM
Running a new game with CE, noticed that boomalopes only produce FSX now and can't be milked for chemfuel. Do you guys still have both?

Now boomalopes only drop FSX.

8cb34xknmpek

Some random npc trader with a pistol can hit me every shot at range with 5 skill, but I cannot hit an elephant at any range with 20+double inspired skill and an AK47 [in any aim/fire mode combination]?

forumgod

Anyone remember that war where people destroyed tanks with shotguns and machine guns instead of dedicated AT cannons? Yeah me neither, but @NoImageAvailable apparently does

8cb34xknmpek

Quote from: nickdos on February 16, 2019, 05:27:17 AM
Anyone remember that war where people destroyed tanks with shotguns and machine guns instead of dedicated AT cannons? Yeah me neither, but @NoImageAvailable apparently does
Maybe you're too young or just uneducated but early tanks were definitely susceptible to small arms fire.

Ramsis

Quote from: nickdos on February 16, 2019, 05:27:17 AM
Anyone remember that war where people destroyed tanks with shotguns and machine guns instead of dedicated AT cannons? Yeah me neither, but @NoImageAvailable apparently does

Stop trolling before you get a short termed vacation. ;3
Ugh... I have SO MANY MESSES TO CLEAN UP. Oh also I slap people around who work on mods <3

"Back off man, I'm a scientist."
- Egon Stetmann


Awoo~

NoImageAvailable

Quote from: nickdos on February 16, 2019, 05:27:17 AM
Anyone remember that war where people destroyed tanks with shotguns and machine guns instead of dedicated AT cannons? Yeah me neither, but @NoImageAvailable apparently does

I remember the times when trolls were relegated to the Steam comment section and this was a community where people were actually polite to each other. You lost a game to Centipedes, instead of figuring out what went wrong came here to rant, were given ample advice on how to do things better. And yet you're still here bitching and whining because apparently the solutions presented to you were not to your liking. Well I have good news, the mod is released under a permissive license and you're free to make and even distribute a version more to your liking so why don't you go do that, because it's gonna get you a solution way faster than posting thinly veiled insults in this thread all day.

Edit: ninja'd by the mod
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."

forumgod

#986
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on February 16, 2019, 07:34:05 AM
Quote from: nickdos on February 16, 2019, 05:27:17 AM
Anyone remember that war where people destroyed tanks with shotguns and machine guns instead of dedicated AT cannons? Yeah me neither, but @NoImageAvailable apparently does

I remember the times when trolls were relegated to the Steam comment section and this was a community where people were actually polite to each other. You lost a game to Centipedes, instead of figuring out what went wrong came here to rant, were given ample advice on how to do things better. And yet you're still here bitching and whining because apparently the solutions presented to you were not to your liking. Well I have good news, the mod is released under a permissive license and you're free to make and even distribute a version more to your liking so why don't you go do that, because it's gonna get you a solution way faster than posting thinly veiled insults in this thread all day.

Edit: ninja'd by the mod

the solution to the centipede problem already exists in vanilla rimworld, but you removed it because you are a hack just like tynan and can't balance it, that's the problem here

what you present as solutions are suicidal or unrealistic, which contradicts what supposedly this mod is about

Ramsis

Nick consider this your final warning before a two week ban. I'm trying to give you the option to stop being a jerk but running out of patience.
Ugh... I have SO MANY MESSES TO CLEAN UP. Oh also I slap people around who work on mods <3

"Back off man, I'm a scientist."
- Egon Stetmann


Awoo~

CombinedAutism

Some people are really throwing a hissy fit in here lol.

Anyways, I am in my first CE playthrough right now and would like to share my thougts.

1. Snipers: It seems to me that they do not have a viable place currently for several reasons (taking the Tac50 as an example here):

  • The power of vegetation. My main pawn right now is supposed to be a Sniper mainly. Though Ive been noticing that despite impressive Bionics he is barely hitting anything. So I did a test: https://imgur.com/a/yy1Wp5a
    The pawn in the bottom shot 20 rounds on the top pawn, aimed mode, Tac50 FMJ. 125% aiming accuracy, 325% weapon handling (Shooting skill at 20, no special traits). Maximum range. Out of 20 shots, 1 hit. Same test, this time around I removed the trees. 7 hits. Third time I removed all plants on the map. 20/20 hits! This means that the effect of even mere bushes on accuracy is insanely high. In many biomes you will not get any hits in unless you start a massive and continuous deforestation project only for that purpose or play in a barren wasteland. I know other guns are obviously affected as well, but those have the advantage of being quick to fire and forgiving. But let's go on.
  • Massive draw time. Obviously it is a sniper rifle we're talking about here, so it naturally should take a longer time to aim. But with aimed mode (which is the only mode that makes any sense for the rifles' purpose) it takes a full 7 seconds. For the fast pace of Rimworld and the relatively small space that is the map - especially later in the game as your base grows - this is very high. You will be able to take one shot, if that and assuming your Sniper is accidentally closeby once the Raid rolls up to your doorstep, until they are in your face.
  • Not in line of sight. This would make sense if your target goes behind a solid obstacle. However, standing behind their allies frequently counts as not in line of sight as well. Now you need 7 seconds of uninterrupted "line of sight" to even get a shot off, else your shooter will begin to draw anew. This is not exclusive to snipers though. Taking a good shot in the middle of an incoming insect wave with an RPG, for example, is a real pain too. I suggest adding some form of forced shot.
  • The maximum range of any sniper rifle = the range of machine guns and Centipedes. No advantage here. You cannot even count on winning a duel with a Machine Gunner on maximum range due to suppression that instantly resets your draw (not that I wanna argue balancing in 1v1 terms, but I think I have a point regardless).
  • Damage per bullet is rather low, given draw time.
  • Unless caught in a firefight or standing at a Mortar, enemies never stay still, which greatly decreases accuracy. I do not have a problem with that.
The way I see it, snipers should offer a superior option for taking out high priority targets reliably (of course relative to pawns stats). The tradeoff is being absolutely useless against groups of enemies and at close range. For the above reasons, you do not really get the pros but all the cons. I haven't had a situation where using my Sniper actually helped. Against Centipedes, all kinds of Sniper rifles are largely useless, even the expensive Sabot round of the Tac50. I don't know why you would sacrifice Uranium and around half a regular bullets damage for 0.05 more armor penetration. You are better off with an RPG using HEAT ammo.
Maybe I am doing something wrong entirely, then please enlighten me, but I really cannot see how having a Sniper makes any sense in any situation right now. I don't know how I would tacke this problem, but maybe make sniper rifles avoid vegetation (since they are supposed to be trained in guerilla warfare anyways, hiding in bush, etc.)?
Although there is one sniper that is actually very poweful. Coming to #2

2. The (Inferno Cannon) Centipede and questionable stationary weapons: This is essentially everything the sniper rifles are not, only that it is AOE, spells certain death for everything in the inner radius, largely ignores trees and shrubs, starts fires, ignores embrasures entirely, has higher range than any other weapon in the game, excluding mortars (86) and is pinpoint accurate most of the time. Downside being the immense aiming time.
Now I do understand that youre not supposed to charge those things with your pawns, but combined with suppression from Charge Blasters, the only viable tactic once youre dealing with like 10 mixed weapon Centipedes is to shell them with Mortars or Orbital Beams. As far as I can tell, the heavy machine guns and especially the Flak Cannon were designed to fight those. But they have several problems. The biggest one that I noticed by far are aforementioned Embrasures. While they are decent against Charge Blaster Fire, Inferno Cannons ignore them entirely. You cannot build any kind of reasonable bunker against Centipedes, it seems to me, because one shot out of an Inferno Cannon will annihilate everything inside it, including your Ammo shelves. If you place those further away, the Flak Cannon especially becomes a one time use weapon pretty much. The Flak Cannon in general does not seem worth the cost (both work and resources). It takes a staggering 1325 something work to make and a LOT of Iron. Unless you have a seasoned shooter, preferably with Bionics, the gun is extremely inaccurate. Reloading time and aiming time are both gigantic, leaving you open to either interruption by suppression or annihilation by an Inferno Cannon. My other lvl 20 shooting pawn (yes I use Combat Training), not bionically enhanced or other buffs, gets about 18c range error on max distance. This is also true of the KPV machine gun, but to a lesser extent. Work is lower at 825 or so, albeit still very high, accuracy is very poor at max distance despite aimed mode and burst or even single fire. Using the AGS30 Grenade Launcher with EMP grenade is basically mandatory. Since it has both EMP and HE options, is dirt cheap at 115Steel and 5 components with only about 500 work and cheap ammo, I don't see any reasons ever even bothering with the heavy duty guns. A weird thing I noticed with it: it is apparently always better to force aim a good distance in front of your target since most of the grenades seem to fly waaay too far.
On another note, there is no way of viewing combat properties of stationary weapons and their ammo. It's a guessing game.

3. Embrasures: As pointed out earlier, I find it very odd that it does not seem to block shots from direct fire heavy duty artillery, including the two big rocket launchers, the 90mm and, notoriously, the Inferno Cannon of Doom. Is that intended?

4. The Loadout system: While great to begin with, it has some glaring issues.

  • There is no reliable way of forcing your pawns to immediately "Gear up & Go" in case of a Raid. Im not writing this coincidentally, because you might know that there is a mod intending to add a function just like that. It seems to work fine for Vanilla, but in CE it seems to have issues either when close to bulk/weight limit or with heavy weapons in general, haven't bothered to distill the problem, but it is there. Unfortunately, the author does not use CE and thus is not gonna fix it. Consequently, you are basically forced to either have your pawns run around constantly with a "mixed bag" of loadouts that can "kind of handle" any scenario, from masses of tribal human meat to Centipede assaults. It makes the feature itself much less useful. Drafting/undrafting for your pawns to move is unreliable, since they somtimes might just pick up 1 ammo pack and then proceed with their jobs.
  • No interaction with Drug/Food policies. I have not found a reliable way to make my pawns keep a stock of drugs set in the drug policy without explicitly adding the drug and requested amount in each and every Loadout (setting "any drug to pick up+drop excess picks up random drugs while only drop excess behavior seems to be entirely random). This gets more annoying the longer the game drags on: I have Loadouts according to gun type. If I want a pawn with Luciferium to be able to use all the Loadouts without going on a murderous rampage because I sent him on a caravan without forcing him to pick up some Luci, I have, amongst others, following options: a) Copy each Loadout and add Luciferium just for that pawn. Gets messy once youre using upwards of 10 weapons. b) Have every standard Loadout keep a stack of, say, 2 Luci. Wastes the drug and bulk/weight on pawns not using the drug.
    And so on. Without those seemingly simple interactions you have to inflate your amount of Loadouts or micromanage more than you'd likely want to. The same applies to food policies. You have to tell pawns explicitly to keep Fine/Simple/Lavish meals of amount x in their inventory, otherwise they might just ignore the request. In their current state, I cannot even see what the "Any Drug/Any meal functions are there for, therefore I assume they are just malfunctioning. Any Drug on pickup/drop excess will literally pick up any random drug (and why would you want to do that). Any Meal will regularly have your pawns carry stacks of raw food, Kibble or Insect Jelly. I think this might be a bug connected to Animal Training.
    ...
    Or I am doing something wrong ???
  • As far as I know from reading comments, there is currently a problem with the Apparel policy tab and the Loadout system and Backpacks. Since they do not have a quality, restricting Apparel policies for certain qualities (maybe just above normal) prevents your pawns from automatically equipping these. Quite annoying because of the Tattered Apparel thing and again, needless micromanagement.
  • Search function does not work in the "select generic" tab.

5. Compatibility: This is a subjective thing more than anything. I tried using Rainbeau Flambes Concrete mod, since I think it adds a very well thought-out Concrete processing system that does NOT rely on steel, unless you use more expensive variants. Adds Steel reinforced and plasteel reinforced walls, embrasures and doors and poured concrete flooring (again WITHOUT steel). I think it would fit great with CE. Why do I bring it up if I can just download it?
I noticed that my stationary weapons got stuck in aiming repeatedly while behind the new embrasures, only firing once enemies were directly in their face. Replacing with CE-native embrasures fixed the problem. Tried loading before and after CE, to no avail. Anybody know what might cause this?
Also, it would be nice to see some compatibility with RPG style inventory. It currently bugs out since there are multiple layers of "belt" items in CE (shields+backpacks and such).

6. Antigrain shells sometimes just "disappear". When in dev mode, it says that it had to be destroyed because it was outside some area or something. Should be easy to test. Only ever experienced this with Antigrains. But it hurts the soul.

For reference, I attached my mod list, but it's messy. Some notable ones are: RBSE, Sparkling Worlds and Genetic Rim (both patched), Pawn Rules, Better Pawn Control, Dubs Bad Hygiene, Fluffys Breakdowns, Psychology, Individuality, Combat Training, Achtung!, More Faction Interaction, SF Materials Rebalanced, The Birds and the Bees.
CE Loaded at the very end just before compatibility patches.

Hopefully this did not sound like a rant. The mod is absolutely amazing and I hope it will still be supported/improved. Maybe this feedback will help

[attachment deleted due to age]

NoImageAvailable

Quote from: CombinedAutism on February 16, 2019, 06:37:16 PM
1. Snipers

Sniper rifles have been a well known problem point for a long time. They're designed to be a backline support weapon, taking out priority targets while requiring support units to draw enemy fire away from them. The latter part works pretty well with MG's being able to suppress and tank their accuracy, the former not so much. Reason it doesn't work out is as you mentioned, lack of accuracy.

The whole vegetation collision system has been an eyesore since it's inception really. Ideally we'd want all the trees to have fixed hitboxes just like regular cover objects but the way line of sight works prevents us from doing it this way. So instead we have this hacky percent chance to intercept a tree. Reduced interception chances for sniper rifles might have been a viable approach had it occurred to us sooner, but as is I doubt anyone on the team is going to bother implementing something like that.

Quote2. The (Inferno Cannon) Centipede and questionable stationary weapons

The flak is another long-known problem point, that thing needs some thorough rebalancing. Never got around to it unfortunately. Never had any issues with the KPV though, nor have I heard anything but good feedback on it. Are you playing flat maps? Long lines of sight naturally favor the Centipedes.

There is nothing making inferno cannons ignore tree collisions, they are just as liable to be intercepted as any other rounds.

QuoteOn another note, there is no way of viewing combat properties of stationary weapons and their ammo. It's a guessing game.

I see your point but that's a vanilla limitation.

Quote3. Embrasures: As pointed out earlier, I find it very odd that it does not seem to block shots from direct fire heavy duty artillery, including the two big rocket launchers, the 90mm and, notoriously, the Inferno Cannon of Doom. Is that intended?

If you mean the explosion going over embrasures, that's regular vanilla behavior. Partial cover doesn't stop blast waves, never did. If you mean the round passing above the embrasure and hitting a wall behind, that's a feature of CE's ballistic system.

QuoteThere is no reliable way of forcing your pawns to immediately "Gear up & Go" in case of a Raid.

Not really an intended use of the system, in fact certain weapon types are balanced around the assumption that you're not gonna just gear everyone up as a raid happens.

QuoteNo interaction with Drug/Food policies.

Anything a pawn picks up as part of their drug policy is marked as forced and ignored by the loadout. Whatever behavior you're seeing is likely a product of vanilla and/or any mods you might have. Loadouts only provide you an option to micromanage specific amount of drugs to carry, e.g. 1 go-juice on front-liners, something you can't do with the vanilla system.

Quote
I noticed that my stationary weapons got stuck in aiming repeatedly while behind the new embrasures, only firing once enemies were directly in their face. Replacing with CE-native embrasures fixed the problem. Tried loading before and after CE, to no avail. Anybody know what might cause this?

CE uses cover values to determine height of cover objects relative to a standing human (1.8m). Most embrasure mods use extremely cheaty values like 90+% for cover, which in CE would translate to 90% the height of a human, making them too tall to shoot over.

Quote6. Antigrain shells sometimes just "disappear". When in dev mode, it says that it had to be destroyed because it was outside some area or something. Should be easy to test. Only ever experienced this with Antigrains. But it hurts the soul.

Long-known bug, result of a really messy feature that should've received more polish years ago.
"The power of friendship destroyed the jellyfish."