Unstable build feedback thread

[Bones]

I like how predators don't hunt us back right away when you shoot. And that being near it increases the chance of 'revenge'.

It was a lot of micro before to hunt predators.

I even tested a melee pawn against a fox, while near it would fight back but when running away it wouldn't follow because the revenge trigger didn't fire.

[Razzoriel]

...

You've clearly missed the 'The balancing process' thread, where Tynan did indeed post how the new armour system works. Exact post, which is still relevant to the current implementation: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=41839.msg412205#msg412205

He never actually confirmed this "candidate" was put into place, and the lack of an "armor penetration" stat in the code itself was proof enough for me to confirm it. If he did, then disregard my post, simple.

EDIT: If it turns out this is the current system, I have a question about custom damage types; will they all convert into blunt or still deal half damage in their form? This is important for those who mod in non-physical damage in weapons.

[Sirsir]

>Death on downed chance for non colony humans now relates to population intent

Hallelujah. I made it through the first year with only 6 colonists... as a tribal start :\

> Mahunters will only attack doors if they see a pawn go through the door (unless there's a bug).

Then theres a bug. I've had manhunting heifers randomly decide to attack my wall door. They gave up eventually but came unfortuntely close.

Also side note about animals and doors, can you make 'drafted' animals not go thorugh doors willy-nilly please?

> So I may end up e.g. nerfing the manhunters, for example.

I wouldn't mind that. Right now they are too overbearing to fight normally, and as a result kind of boring. "alright I'm spending the next 2 days in my base and afterwards getting a lot of food from exhausted animals"

> Why not use some wood plate armor?

You fixed the plate armor crafting issue? Last time I tried it had a tendency to just eat materials. Pretty sure my oblivious self lost like 1000 steel before I noticed...

> It seems some players want a guaranteed formula that always works, IMO that is boring once you have it figured out. Hopefully the game can retain a sense of some chaos and insecurity from beginning to end.

Different people want different things. The 'chaos and insecurity' thing is great for roguelikes, but AFAIC this game has far too much of a time investment to die 'just cuz'

[Tynan]

He never actually confirmed this "candidate" was put into place, and the lack of an "armor penetration" stat in the code itself was proof enough for me to confirm it.

I did confirm it in patch notes referring to the implementation of the "three way armor system".

There is an armor penetration stat, it's on every projectile, it's called <armorPenetration> in the XML and in-game, it is output on every weapon stats window as "Armor Penetration".

The armor system is also described in the weapons' stats windows.

Different people want different things. The 'chaos and insecurity' thing is great for roguelikes, but AFAIC this game has far too much of a time investment to die 'just cuz'

Serious question: What difficulty are you on and why not just lower it?

[Boboid]

In regards to the armor system - For the most part I like it but there are certainly some outliers.

Wood armor (when wood is abundant) is actually really quite good for the early game, but it does require a lot of research for something that ultimately is merely on-par with a good quality duster made of a strong material.
If you've got trivial access to wood then in my experience you can grow devilstrand pretty easily. Additionally most biomes where wood is abundant have sufficient animals that provide very strong leathers.

Steel armor compares much better in terms of protection but.. it's still very expensive.

In my current tribal melee focused game (trying to give melee an acid-test, holy cow elephant tusks are good weapons, possibly too good) I've purchased 2 sets of steel armor but.. researching it will take longer than it takes to research Machining and steel is at a bit of a premium on a flat map in the early game before I can start up consistent trade requests and output sufficient trade goods.
Strictly speaking it's probably worth my time and effort to go and mine the available steel and put it towards steel armor but it feels bad investing time and resources in a dead-end temporary solution.
One of my pawns right now is running around with ~64% sharp resist on his whole body except for his neck/head because of elephant leather,40% of which is from a duster. Do I want to spend 210 steel for 80-90% total armor instead? Maybe! It's ~24% more blunt resist which is nice.

I guess my point is that it's not a very clear or satisfying upgrade at the moment, being mutually exclusive with both outer clothing for temperature management and flak vests is a hard position to be in.
---
While we're on the subject - Why is it that only Dusters cover your legs? It's a huge deal from an armor perspective - always has been now that I think about it - because jackets are only marginally better at cold insulation than dusters, often by an amount that is only relevant in the most extreme climates where Parkas would likely be more appropriate.
Even when I'm playing in cold climates I always look at a jacket and think "That's one bad Duster".

And on the subject of armor coverage - Hands and feet: Why do you spurn them so?
To be perfectly frank if plate armor covered hands and feet I'd probably invest in it in a heartbeat, and possibly go on using it well past the point where flak was more effective. Mostly because I'm the kind of person who really hates seeing fingers and toes blown, bitten, or shot off.


Edit: Tacking this on the end here - Great Bows are, -and probably always have been- a bit too powerful in my experience. To the point where I actually try to avoid them unless I'm really min-maxing it up in that particular playthrough. Their overall profile is extremely similar to bolt action rifles which is a pretty great place to be. They're actually a bit better than bolt action rifles at shortish range which is kind of bonkers.

There's definitely room in the game for a good tribal weapon, and there's definitely space between the Recurve and the Great bows for adjustment. I just don't think they really ought to be so good that they overshadow a variety of firearms and even their own firearm equivalent up until assault rifles.

[EdgarDruin]

So, a few years in, 6th of Jugust, 5504.

First, quick question, I go to options, click Choose storyteller, does that show what I'm on or the default selection for storyteller?

I could have sworn I was on hard, but that shows Cassandra with Medium selected.  Maybe show the current storyteller somewhere if it isn't showing the currently selected storyteller?

[Edit:  I guess I can answer my own question, changed it to Hard, looked at it again, it's still on Hard.  Guess that reset at some point.  I know I started higher.]

Medium would explain why the raids don't seem to be overwhelming, typically less in number than my colonists with colony wealth currently at 126128 on the map, items 70997, buildings 53393.

I've given up on choke points and kill boxes, which used to be my primary strategy for any conflict.  As soon as a built a killbox like area, all subsequent raids were sappers and they'd never come anywhere close to anything I'd expect.  So, instead of heading to the kill box, and going to the same positions I've always used and kill whatever was coming, I man the wall on the side I expect.

So, now I have a rather porous wall with granite and sandbags with turret emplacements to soften things up, see attached image.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/trpyvnckgwkjxgq/Screenshot%202018-07-03%2009.09.47.png?dl=0

Each wall segment used to be two wide when I'd done this before, but I use melee all the time now, so that's changed to three wide so a melee can stand behind cover until things close and step out to fight when things hit the wall.

I'm still doing terrible at trade.  In my earlier post, I'd mentioned that I'd just let faction standing slide.  It seemed impossible to keep it high with the -10 penalty, which still feels just arbitrary, like I'm not playing the game the way it's intended, so here, have a penalty!  Clearly all I needed to do was give away resources, but I've never gifted things for standing in hundreds of hours played, I prefer that trade is trade I guess.

I missed the change in facing for the comms console, it switched at some point and made the chair position be inside a wall.  I took me over a year to notice I'd had no passing ships before I was forced to deconstruct and reconstruct that little change.

I haven't had a single trade caravan in 3 years.  After relations fell, it left only one faction at +3, the other were all -50 or more.  But I would have expected at least a few caravans?  With how harsh relations are, it makes it important to keep relations high, but it has clearly become a chore that I have to do ...

This led to a resource crunch, I ran out of easy to find components on the map, steel was scarce, I started strip mining tunnels on all the remaining hills.

With my last couple components and breakdowns ready to claim them, I forced a quick build of a pod launcher and single pod.

I shot a very large gift towards my closest faction, it was -50 because I was leaving them alone and just minding my business so they hate me.  The gift bumped it back to +70 ... (5) off on my calculations, no ally. 

The only remaining friendly faction cities were 6 or 7 days away and without rations researched, seemed out of reach.  This seemed a last ditch effort to do something about it, get a closer friend or ally that would send me caravans or that I could send a caravan to and trade.

With a friendly faction nearby again, I sent a trade caravan and bought all of their components and hit a stash on the way back to pick up a masterwork chain shotgun and resolved my faction / trade / resource crunch.

I've read some hate on the forums for shotguns, but whoa, masterwork chain shotgun in the middle of the line to kill any melee that closes?  He's a death machine.

Part of my hurdle in this playthrough, mainly due to the trade issue I'd wager, was a lack of gold.  I'd found no gold on the map and no one had gold to trade in any caravan, not that I had many caravans.  I was getting desperate, and I'd researched everything under the microelectronics gate on the research tab.  Finally, a gift from above, 27 gold from a cargo pod and I was finally able to build a multi-analyzer and continue progression.  I'm working towards deep drilling now, which will likely solve my resource crunch for a while.

After fixing my communications console, I've had passing ships again, though only combat and pirate.  RNG won't send me a bulk trading ship (and still no caravans) so I'm overflowing with things I'd like to trade but can't.

I think I'm going to have to be careful with steel until I can deep drill, won't be long now, my researcher has gotten pretty good at his task.

I still avoid nearly everything on the map, with the changes to show quantity and not just type of enemy I might be able to plan well enough to do some of them.  It still feels rather risky, I don't get many pawns I want and have been hovering in the teens for colonists.  I feel like I'd need to send around 3-5, but with the incredible number of negative attributes, I only have 3 colonists that aren't slow or missing limbs or have scars that slow them or a missing toe that slow them.  I cherry pick the best of the best to keep travel time low and leave the crap behind, but with the killbox not working, they have to fight now, and fight on the wall, not tucked safely behind 10 or 15 turrets.  It's quite a trade off, so I still typically pass on leaving.

Speaking of negative attributes, birthdays suck and only suck.  Perhaps you could stick a few positive outcomes, or maybe they've just been hidden by RNG.  Age, wisdom, all that, perhaps a skill increases by 1 on it's own.  Turning 50 has become perilous, so many that are frail or have bad backs, ok 3 out of 4 now, but still ... I'm now even more picky about which downed I rescue, can't be too old, you might have a bad birthday that compounds that scar you have and then you walk at 50%.

As always, I enjoy the game and continue to trudge towards the end game (which I've never actually tried ...)

[Bones]

You fixed the plate armor crafting issue? Last time I tried it had a tendency to just eat materials. Pretty sure my oblivious self lost like 1000 steel before I noticed...

It was fixed, I made plate armors and they had the unfinished version and it wouldn't disappear.

Different people want different things. The 'chaos and insecurity' thing is great for roguelikes, but AFAIC this game has far too much of a time investment to die 'just cuz'

That's why there are several difficult options to choose. I'm sorry to be saying this directly to your reply but I believe the same goes for other users.

A lot of people play on different difficulties, if the game is too hard, try lowering the difficulty, if it is too easy increase it.

There is no need to ask to make something more dangerous unless you are playing extreme or telling to nerf something unless you are playing on the easiest difficulty.

In the end there are mods that can also help.

What Tynan is doing is not fixing the game only for those who bought the game, he is fixing the game for those who will still buy the game, discover it and play it in the future. That's what 1.0 should be all about, a version that anyone can feel safe buying it. As in it will be fun regardless if I prefer 'chaos and insecurity', 'sandbox base building' or somewhere in between.

[Sirsir]

Different people want different things. The 'chaos and insecurity' thing is great for roguelikes, but AFAIC this game has far too much of a time investment to die 'just cuz'

Serious question: What difficulty are you on and why not just lower it?

I'm fine on my difficulty setting (rough) but I was responding to someone else that was saying they wish this game was even LESS secure than it is now. I think the game is rather well balanced as is (beside the centipedes, but I think those are supposed to feel that way)

You fixed the plate armor crafting issue? Last time I tried it had a tendency to just eat materials. Pretty sure my oblivious self lost like 1000 steel before I noticed...

It was fixed, I made plate armors and they had the unfinished version and it wouldn't disappear.

Different people want different things. The 'chaos and insecurity' thing is great for roguelikes, but AFAIC this game has far too much of a time investment to die 'just cuz'

That's why there are several difficult options to choose. I'm sorry to be saying this directly to your reply but I believe the same goes for other users.

A lot of people play on different difficulties, if the game is too hard, try lowering the difficulty, if it is too easy increase it.

There is no need to ask to make something more dangerous unless you are playing extreme or telling to nerf something unless you are playing on the easiest difficulty.

In the end there are mods that can also help.

What Tynan is doing is not fixed the game only for those who bought the game, he is fixing the game for those who will still buy the game, discover it and play it in the future. That's what 1.0 should be all about, a version that anyone can feel safe buying it. As in it will be fun regardless if I prefer 'chaos and insecurity', 'sandbox base building' or somewhere in between.

Thats great! Plate armor looks epic! But why would you make Wood Plate Armor when you can just use Steel? (aside from flat maps where wood is everywhere and steel nodes are nonexistant)

And I completely agree about difficulty. In the end thats the beauty of such a heavily moddable game. I can get a mod that restores doors to their original health total, and crow_t can get teleporting mechs or something.

[JimmyAgnt007]

On doors and walls.  I use wood to start but switch to stone when things get going.  If anything gets taken out, I just replace it with a stronger material.  So if they dig into my base, I fill it with plasteel.  If they take out a door or turret I make it out of Uranium.  It makes sense that wood would be so week, though Id argue that small animals shouldnt be able to take them out.  My cats assault my bathroom door relentlessly to no avail any time I go in there and the doors are still standing.

[Sangerwolf]

Is there a rolling changelog for the 1.0 experimental updates? (wondering whats updated since last night)

[I Am Testing This Game]

Serious question: What difficulty are you on and why not just lower it?

Difficulty setting in this game serves multiple purposes

It is a way to increase "non-random" difficulty; increase the number of raids (which involve using tactics and gameplay to win)

but it is also a way to increase "random" difficulty; increase the number of bad events like plagues (which involve using dice rolls and ultra boring micro to win)

The late game can be very, very boring and stagnant if you're not getting raided and in prior builds even high difficulties had a shortage of late game raids. But tolerance for random bad events will vary from player to player.

So I do think people feel a need to play on high difficulty, but don't necessarily want to die randomly due to factors they have no control over.

IE: raids that you plan for in advance, build your base to counter, equip your guys to counter and micro like crazy during (gameplay) vs some disease where you live or die based on your rolls for tend quality (luck)

[Perq]

Caravan notes:

There needs to be a way of setting priorities who is getting healed first, or simply fixed "smart" priorities.

People who are literally dying (bleeding) or slowly dying (infections) needs to have highest priority here over, say, pack animals and whatnot. This process should also be a little faster, imo (especially when there are 4 doctors in the caravan for total of 7 people in it).

Why? I literally had to stop next to a other colony to "settle" to get my pawn healed, because he has 3 hours to live. This obviously decreased faction status, which doesn't make much sense, since I simply tried to mend my dying pawn (which also left empty ruins of my "colony" there).

[Bones]

Tynan, I know this is a suggestion and off topic but since you have been so active I'm going to ask here.

How about putting some colorblind options in the game? I know it would be low priority but it would be a great feature for 1.0 .

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1424338139

Here you can see that people are interested in such a mod, it goes without saying that those that are colorblind needs it and even non colorblind people subscribed because it also makes it easier to spot different minerals just by glance.

The problem is that there are several types of colorblind and from the comments we can see that the scheme of color used didn't work for everyone, it would be great if people could change the color of some things in the options so those who are colorblind can choose whatever works best for them.

[Tynan]

Another build because why not.

--

Fix: Invalid map index errors caused by inspector tabs after loading a game and keeping the tab open.
Game of Ur no longer requires chairs to use. But, chairs are still preferred.
Manhunter pack incident letter clarifications.
Manhunter pack incident points factor adjusted.
Reduce sappers and sieges somewhat at high points levels.
Made mining yields (drill and standard) difficulty-dependent. Similar to crop yields.
Rate of enemy non-death down is now difficulty-dependent (this balances the different numbers of enemies at different difficulties).
Caravan pawns no longer get extra joy from eating food. Caravan pawns now periodically get a little bit of Social/Meditative joy.
Turret maintenance cost is now difficuly-dependent (though the top 3 difficulties are the same)
Various needs now freeze while a pawn is in a mental state (recreation etc).
Increase wood stuff HP factor and door base health a bit.
Reduce some armor costs a bit.
Debuff greatbow a bit.
Remove limit on points of friendly raids.
Changed site threat points curve (less enemies).
Changed translation report syntax suggestions format a bit.
Fix: DefInjections duplicates are not detected in some cases. TranslationReport no longer says that a field is not translated if you use indexes instead of named handles.

[iamomnivore]

Manhunter packs often attack specific doors during initial entry.

Mahunters will only attack doors if they see a pawn go through the door (unless there's a bug). Typically this happens when people are trying to have their colonists pop out to take potshots at the manhunters, which is intended to be non-viable as a strategy because it's micro-y and boring to execute and I don't want the game pushing players to engage boring activities. Making it less viable is a major motivator for the door HP change. Overall doors aren't supposed to be fortifications, they're more about prisoners, room edges, and temperature control than absorbing damage and controlling enemy movement.

That said I'm gonna look at the HP gap between steel and wood, 56hp wood and 140hp steel seems a bit stark.

This has possibly been bugged, since B18. I've had maddened animals begin, while everyone was in base. These animals will not try to tear the door down but, they do oddly take pot-shots. I had one situation (B18) where a pack of them were intermittently attacking the door, so much, that they eventually tore it down even with repairs (there were a couple dozen of them right outside my door when that happened.) I'll try to drum up an actual scenario, or capture some video of it when it next happens.

A note: I set zones, when this happens, and the colonists aren't even capable of leaving this (supposedly safe) space. It's happened enough that I've started accounting for it. Thanks.